Arbeter Fraint's Take

[jason_c]

Hi Rob.

The key word here I believe is "flowing". I stand to be corrected but I'd say that any blood flow would have ceased very shortlly after Liz Stride died. Considering the injury, I'd also say that she would have been dead within a few minutes of recieving the injury. If Schwarz's timing was out, then that's a different kettle of fish. What leads you to believe that Schwartz was mistaken regarding the time he witnessed the attack ?

Regards

Observer

Observer,

Apologies for interrupting, I know you addressed the question to rob.

Would'nt Schwarz's mistaking the time by a few minutes be a more reasonable assumption than assuming Stride was attacked twice in 15 minutes? Or that the Ripper's usual lightning attack lasted 10-15 minutes in Berner Street?

All it would need is for Schwartz timing to be a few minutes out and/or Stride lingering onto life for a few minutes longer than we assume to make it plausible her blood was flowing at 1.05 and that Schwartz had interrupted the attack.

None of the above assumptions are unreasonable.

[Cogidubnus]

Stinks, doesn't it?

Umm, you thinking what I'm thinking?

Cheers.
LC

So, is Schwartz perhaps translated Lynn? I think he is...the whole two-man set up and Lipski never struck me as realistic...it doesn't fit in with a lone Jack and you know it...

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Dr. Blackwell mentioned a pound [16 ounces] of clotted blood and also running blood, which is awkward. But I guess he must have factored both these into consideration before determining Stride's time of death.

Hi Simon

Clearly you need some kind of expert, (which I'm certainly not!), but I thought the following link was interesting...it looks like between a couple of minutes and an hour (if there's been some disturbance/jostling/fiddling with the body)...I also note from elsewhere that high blood alcohol can substantially affect clotting time...

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CEXNgHj5jkIC&pg=PA176&lpg=PA176&dq=congealed+and+flowing+blood+post+mortem&source=bl&ots=HFuWcgF5OE&sig=krfq55n2QR0SglAeXeh9V8qGNWY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3J5rT-POHMmq8APTj8DDBg&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=congealed%20and%20flowing%20blood%20post%20mortem&f=false

Best wishes
Dave

[lynn cates]

sitting

Hello Dave.

"So, is Schwartz perhaps translated Lynn? I think he is...the whole two-man set up and Lipski never struck me as realistic...it doesn't fit in with a lone Jack and you know it..."

Could be. The Schwartz story never sat well with me.

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Dave,

My expert was the LA County Coroner.

Does he count?

Regards,

Simon

[Cogidubnus]

My expert was the LA County Coroner.
Does he count?

Hi Simon

(He's Californian after all so it depends how many fingers he can manage....)

Dunno mate...I'll listen to most genuine experts above laymen...so what does he say?

Dave

[Observer]

Hi Observer,

I would say this. Try an experiment... without looking at a clock, guess what time it is right now. Then look at the clock, and post the result. I will do the same here.... I have not looked at a clock in at least an hour.

Guessing it is 5: 15PM. Actual time 5: 19... much better than I expected actually.

Rob H

Hi Rob

Again havn't looked at a clock for over an hour, guessed 10:45 p.m. Actual time 10 :36 p.m.

See what you mean, it seems we guess to the nearest quarter.

Regards

Observer

[Wickerman]

I always assumed Schwartz ran either south down Berner Street or west toward Backchurch Lane. According to the Star, he "fled incontinently to his new lodgings" (in Backchurch Lane). Swanson's report says "Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man, he ran so far as the railway arch, but the man did not follow so far."

But it seems the Echo report implies the murderer ran away east down Fairclough St. Is that the way others interpret this?

I wonder if it is possible that the Echo account is actually relating a true event? Is it not possible that someone else chased BS away after Schwartz left the scene? Pipe man may have chased him for example.

RH

The only two people who DID run east down Fairclough St. were Diemschitz & Kozebrodski. And, Schwartz said he ran as far as the railway arch.

Where is there a railway arch on Fairclough St.? - there never was one!

I had asked this earlier in the thread but no-one can find a solution to this problem.

The Echo/Scotsman story is a confused account of Diemschitz & Kozebrodski's run for help down Fairclough St. There's nothing more to it than that. Schwartz ran down Berner St. and the nearest railway arch was down by Cable St. or Pinchin St. This story therefore has nothing to do with Schwartz.

Regards, Jon S.

[robhouse]

OK, I will now guess. Last checked the clock around 6:20. That was about an hour ago? So 7:20? Actual time 7:28. Again not bad.

My point being, where did Schwartz's estimate of the time come from? Did he see a clock? Did he hear the church bells toll the hour or half-hour? When was the last time he "knew" what time it was, and even then, how accurate was it? A clock could easily be off by several minutes. In a best case scenario, Schwartz may have seen a clock recently, and his 12:45 estimate could be accurate with 5 minutes or so. If he hadn't seen a clock in a while (30 minutes? an hour?) his estimate could be off by 10 minutes or more.

The incident he witnessed could have (easily) taken place at 12:53, or even 12:55. Or 12:35. Who is to say?

Again, I ask: where is there any evidence that Schwartz was chased? And does not the Echo article imply a chase going east? Or am I reading too much into it?

Rob H

Rob H

[Cogidubnus]

The Echo/Scotsman story is a confused account of Diemschitz & Kozebrodski's run for help down Fairclough St. There's nothing more to it than that. Schwartz ran down Berner St. and the nearest railway arch was down by Cable St. or Pinchin St. This story therefore has nothing to do with Schwartz.

Hi Jon

I contend Schwartz and the whole two-man incident just didn't happen...see above

Dave

[Wickerman]

Spooner also noted the cachous in Liz's hand, the first to do so. This would suggest that he was a very attentive witness, and I can see no reason to doubt that he did see blood flowing from Liz's throat 4 or 5 minutes after Diemschutz discovered Liz.

Spooner never saw her left hand.

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

An hour ago?

My point being, where did Schwartz's estimate of the time come from? Did he see a clock? Did he hear the church bells toll the hour or half-hour?

Hi Rob

I agree...from Berners Street he can't see a clockface, and when the last strike of the nearest clock (was Christ Church the nearest striking tower?), took place, why should he have taken particular notice of it...

In terms of time estimate, without being previously briefed, I was half an hour out...

Dave

[Wickerman]

Hi Christer.

Sampled the blood in the yard? Where is this mentioned?

P C Lamb was asked if the blood had congealed. In the dark, wet blood & congealed blood both look like oil.
Because Lamb answered the question then we know he had to have touched the blood to find out.
He could have said, "I don't know", but he told the Coroner that some had congealed, therefore he had to have felt the blood to be able to answer this.

felt Strides face and then her wrist (unknown which, but the left one would have been more easily accessible, palm up on the ground.

Actually Christer, her left hand was not easily accessible. Both her face & her knees were near to the wall. Therefore everyone was standing behind her. The left hand had to be next to the wall. They would have to reach over her body to grasp her left hand. But, her right hand was directly in front of them, across her right breast.

Because if there had been fingerprints in the blood on her hand, then reasonably Phillips would not have called the presence of the clots of blood a "mystery".

Smeared blood which had dried in lines (oblong) would be consistent with it being left there by fingers, would it not?

I believe this is a mistake - I think he saw the paper in Strides LEFT hand, the cachous paper. It was doubled up, he said, and if there had been grapes in her right hand, why would the paper have been doubled up? It makes no sense.

Spooner was seeing by matchlite, the range of which is measured in inches, you'd agree?
Spooner mentioned her "right" hand, and then the "flower" which was also on her right breast, beside her hand no doubt. So, in my opinion no mistake.

Yes, I'll go over your dissertation again, just to envisage your argument.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Schwartz

Tom, you said:
"If someone else witnessed it, this person was not seen by Schwartz and was completely forgotten by Abberline and his superiors by the time of the Oct. 16th Swanson report and the ensuing exchange it inspired. "

What about Pipeman? Surely he also witnessed it.

Hi Rob. I’m not sure you followed the argument. I probably wasn’t clear enough. First, you must read the Echo Oct 1st report where Wess delivers to a reporter a garbled version of the Schwartz incident. One interpretation from this would be that Wess and therefore the police knew Pipeman’s identity. The other, and in my opinion the far more likely explanation, is that he knew Schwartz’s identity and the reporter confused the roles of the men. Of course Pipeman was a witness, but the Swanson report of Oct. 16th and the communications from Abberline which followed leave no doubt that Pipeman’s identity was not known. And a witness who doesn’t come forth is not a witness.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

The blood flow dilemma

I'm not following the blood debate on here, because I don't really think there's a whole lot to debate. But one important factor to keep in mind is that Schwartz did not claim to see Stride's throat cut at 12:45am, so there's no empirical evidence to suggest she was murdered at this minute. If in fact Spooner saw blood still coming from her wound at approx. 1:06am, there are two possible explanations.

1) What he saw was fresh flow, indication she must have been murder later than 12:45, but no later than 1am, when her body was discovered.

2) He adjusted her neck or moved her a little more than he intimated, causing a small pool of blood which had settled in her neck to move lose and flow out, giving the impression she was still bleeding.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott