Signs of suffocation?

[Morgana LeFay]

Were there any?

[lynn cates]

signs

Hello Morgana. Do you mean any of the five? Are you including signs of strangulation?

Polly and Annie were clearly strangled. The signs were unmistakable.

The other three did not have overt signs of strangulation; but, as is so often pointed out on the boards. one may possibly be strangled without such signs.

Cheers.
LC

[Morgana LeFay]

I mean specifically Stride....

Thanks for the answer : )

[Tom_Wescott]

No overt signs of strangulation, although that doesn't mean she wasn't strangled. If she were strangled, it was to unconsciousness and not death.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

If she were strangled, it was to unconsciousness and not death.

How many times do I have to correct this in the Stride threads? Medicinally it doesn't make sense that she would have held unto the cachous if she became unconscious BEFORE her throat was cut. In that case her hands would have relaxed and she would have dropped the cachous. The fact that she held on to the cachous points to death convulsions when she asphyxiated due to her jugular having been cut. It's most plausible that she was incapacitated through a stranglehold, not strangled, before her throat was attacked. Obviously it all went real quick, in one fluent movement.

[Morgana LeFay]

Oh, thanks!

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, but her hand didn't so much 'grip' the cachous as they were lodged between her thumb and forefinger. I would say her hands were relatively relaxed. And I believe you mean 'cadaveric spasms' as opposed to death convulsions. But I don't see those applying in the Stride case, as they do in Chapman. No need to stress yourself out in schooling me on the facts of the Stride case, Maria.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Nope, I meant death convulsions, which happen through the body's stress around the time one's dying. Cadaveric convulsion essentially means muscular stiffening that occurs at the moment of death, as in the position in which one ends up after they died. Chronologically death convulsions are followed by a cadaveric convulsion.
I'm not stressing out myself in the least, it comes very naturally. Arguably I've learned tons of things about the Stride case from you, but time has come that I can provide my own contributions on Berner Street, as you know that I'm working on Schwartz, the WVC, etc.. It's the natural flow of things that often the pupil ends up surpassing the master. ;-)
As for her hand not so much having had a grip at the cachous vs. them being lodged between her thumb and forefinger, unfortunately we can't be absolutely sure of this, after Dr. Johnston fully messed up the scene.

[The Grave Maurice]

Well, Polly had the marks on her throat, Annie had the slightly protruding tongue, Liz had the tight kerchief around her neck...those all seem to be signs of at least partial strangulation. With Kate and Mary, I don't think we have enough evidence, although there doesn't seem to have been much arterial spray in Kate's case, so I suppose strangulation is a possibility.

In the last week, I've encountered two speakers and one author who stated, as though it were a given, that the C5 were all at least partially strangled prior to death. This seems to be becoming a widely accepted theory concerning the the killer's MO.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Maria. While I agree that it's beyond debate that I'm the 'master' of Ripperology (I prefer 'Alpha and Omega'), I would beg to differ on the notion that I could ever be surpassed. Anyway, as to Stride, I wouldn't be too quick to rule out strangulation.

Grave,

Yes, most of what you will hear people say about the Ripper is generalized or just downright wrong, whether it's in a book, on the boards, or at conferences.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Ken (if I may), it appears more plausible that Stride's scarf was used to pull up her head away from the ground when he cut her throat than for strangulation.

In the last week, I've encountered two speakers and one author who stated, as though it were a given, that the C5 were all at least partially strangled prior to death. This seems to be becoming a widely accepted theory concerning the the killer's MO.

Were the speakers participants in the Philly conference?
Unfortunately, at the last Ripperological conference I attended I even encountered a famous speaker and author who believes that Stride was a domestic by a secret lover, so perhaps it'd be better not to get into what all is presented at conferences.

Tom, how did we go from Berner Street to the entire Ripperology? As for being surpassed on Berner Street, a bit late I'm afraid, it's already happening to you. (Should have thought twice before teaching me so well, and now you have to suffer the consequences, as others have before you.)
At any rate, if you want to envision strangulation on Stride's case, you'd have to say attempted strangulation at the most. Which continued swiftly into throat cutting, which was her cause of death AND the reason why the cachous got stuck in her hand.

[The Grave Maurice]

Ken (if I may), it appears more plausible that Stride's scarf was used to pull up her head away from the ground when he cut her throat than for strangulation.

Of course you may, Maria...although I'm not sure why you say that your statement of the facts is more plausible. She was right next to a wall and there was no reported arterial spray. I would assume (although I'm out of my depth here) that would indicate that her heart had pretty much stopped beating before her throat was cut. Would the fact that it was only a "nick" make the difference?

[mariab]

The Ripper, not the strangler of Whitechapel

If we got into a debate like this, Ken, it reminds me of the Ramsey case, where it was not completely obvious if the little girl died from strangulation or through head trauma, as it was unclear which was fatal first. Still, for Stride it makes sense to say that there was no arterial spray because the perp cut her throat when she was lying face down on the ground, not standing up against the wall. The same with Chapman, where there was no arterial spray found on the fence. There is no evidence in the contemporary doctors' reports that these women died from strangulation vs. their throats being cut, even if they might have been partly incapacitated by strangulation or a stranglehold initially.

[lynn cates]

knotty problem

Hello Maria.

"it appears more plausible that Stride's scarf was used to pull up her head away from the ground when he cut her throat"

Well, was she lying on her left side at the time? If so, would not such a move cause her scarf's knot to be tight and to the right?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Grave. Stride's throat was cut after she was on her side. Her left carotid artery was cut, thus the blood shot downward in the gutter. A puddle of it was also to be found on the large stone over which her neck laid. The gutter was a make shift one that ran alongside the house roughly 17 feet to the steps that led into the kitchen of the club. It was lined with jagged stones. Because of this impediment, the killer used Stride's scarf to lift her head up in order to get his knife blade under her throat. In short, he intended to sever the carotid and vocal chords. The jagged stones and exceptional dark were impediments he did not have in Hanbury street, which succinctly explains why we shouldn't expect to see the same depth in the cut. But the cut was certainly effective in its purpose.

As for the notion that she was dead before throat was cut, I would consider this extremely unlikely. Dr. Phillips noted that there was an 'unusual' amount of blood in the gutter. In my 2006 essay, I observed that this is probably due to the blood having mixed with some of the water from the earlier rain, making it appear more voluminous. Nevertheless, there must have been a good amount of blood, and certainly more than we'd expect to come from a person already dead.

She was indeed facing the wall when she fell/was lowered. According to Johnston, Blackwell's assistant, her knees were closer to the wall than her head. Contary to some statements, she was not lying across the pathway. Just mentioning all this to try and give you a visual.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott