Signs of suffocation?

[Wickerman]

Good grief Maria, what kind of a mixed bag is this?
:-)

How many times do I have to correct this in the Stride threads?..

You tried to do what?

Medicinally it doesn't make sense .....

What does medicine have to do with this?

...that she would have held unto the cachous if she became unconscious BEFORE her throat was cut. In that case her hands would have relaxed and she would have dropped the cachous.

When someone is strangled swiftly their hands will clench-up, smaller muscles tighten up as if in cramp (evident in judicial hangings). So she could have held onto anything in her hands.

The fact that she held on to the cachous points to death convulsions when she asphyxiated due to her jugular having been cut.

Asphyxiation has nothing to do with blood flow. Asphyxiation is purely associated with the larynx and airways.

Interupting the flow of blood, whether by pressure to the arteries/veins, or by cutting the same will only induce unconsciousness slowly, this is not a rapid death. A person with one carotid artery cut will slip into unconsciousness gradually. Muscles will relax and in all likelyhood she might have dropped the cachous.

It's most plausible that she was incapacitated through a stranglehold, not strangled, before her throat was attacked. Obviously it all went real quick, in one fluent movement.

A stranglehold will take minutes (1-2?) to take effect, depending on the killers experience and the method of application, but I'm not sure of the distinction you are making here.
You can impede breathing, or you can restrict blood flow. If he used a cord you would achieve both at the same time, and the effect would be measure in seconds.

I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest Stride was strangled or suffocated before the knife was used.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Well, was she lying on her left side at the time? If so, would not such a move cause her scarf's knot to be tight and to the right?

Only if the killer grabbed the knot, which he apparently didn't do. Keep in mind that there's no question the scarf was pulled tight at the moment her throat was cut, as the knife follows the line of the scarf, even knicking it as it went along. As Grave observed, had she been standing, there'd be blood on the wall, and no need to utilize the scarf. The evidence, and not myself or Maria, requires Stride to have been on the ground, on her left side, with her scarf pulled tight at the moment her throat was cut.

From these facts, we can infer that it was necessary to use her scarf to lift her throat up before the blade of the knife was long. We already know from the wound it was clearly sharp, so it's quite consistent with the knife used to kill Eddowes...as well as a thousand other knives in Whitechapel. But anything you read arguing that the knife used on Stride was provably different from that used on Eddowes is absolutely mistaken.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

views

Hello Tom.

"Keep in mind that there's no question the scarf was pulled tight at the moment her throat was cut, as the knife follows the line of the scarf, even knicking it as it went along."

Absolutely agree.

"had she been standing, there'd be blood on the wall"

True--if she were bolt upright. But I envision her neck over the ground and only 2-3 feet above it.

Basically, my view on Liz is close to Blackwell's; yours, to Phillips'. Perhaps I can try yet another reenactment using your version this time. Ironically, it has been exactly 1 year (tomorrow) since I've done the last one.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest Stride was strangled or suffocated before the knife was used.

Unfortunately, you're correct in that there's not enough evidence to prove she was strangled, but I'd argue there's enough to suggest it as a possibility, by the mere fact that Stride appears to have gone to the ground softly, quietly, and without struggle. It should not be assumed that strangulation always leaves the desired and obvious marks, because it does not.

Having said that, Maria's suggestion that some sort of a stranglehold was used is perhaps more likley. Meaning the use of his arm and not his hands. He may also have used a Vulcan neck pinch of sorts, as suggested years ago by Ivor Edwards, although this would not be a popular option for most Ripper commentators, as it would limit the known suspect pool down to only about Le Grand, so we'll skip that for the time being.

I remain completely fluid and open minded on this point (how Stride was subdued), and have suggested more than once that it may have been as simple as a fainting. However, I'll point out again that her legs were deformed, so knocking her off balance would not have been difficult at all. This should also be remembered when considering what Schwartz saw. If BS Man did not mean to knock Stride off her feet, then it no longer constitutes an 'attack' and BS Man's behavior my have been more in the way of obstinence than violence. But I digress...

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

True--if she were bolt upright. But I envision her neck over the ground and only 2-3 feet above it.

Basically, my view on Liz is close to Blackwell's; yours, to Phillips. Perhaps I can try yet another reenactment using your version this time. Ironically, it has been exactly 1 year (tomorrow) since I've done the last one.

Actually, my view is spot on with Blackwell's, who felt it was most likely that Stride was already on the ground when her neck was cut. Garry Wroe also seemed to think Blackwell's hypothesis was different, because he hadn't compared the sources.

And if her neck were 2-3 feet above ground when cut, we'd see arterial spray on the pathway, well outside the gutter, and certainly on the wall. But it wasn't there.

For those following, I'm not throwing about theories here (unless I make it obvious I am, such as with the fainting, et al), but am merely reiterating facts that never seem to make it into the books, all of which have the Stride murder wrong.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

Blackwell

Hello Tom. But did not Blackwell think Liz was cut whilst falling? Moreover, he envisioned a quick take down, from behind.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

He stated she was either cut while falling, or on the ground, and stated that on the ground was the most likely of the two.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

DT

Hello Tom. I checked the DT and did not see the part about likely. Here it is;

"A Juror: Can you say whether the throat was cut before or after the deceased fell to the ground? - I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground. The blood would have spurted about if the act had been committed while she was standing up."

He seems torn. Of course, he clearly rules out standing bolt upright. He's right. Standing straight would cause a mess on the wall.

I disagree only in that I think Liz was rotating as he pulled. You might have another go at my film as that explains my idea. (Of course, my wife did not rotate enough, given safety concerns, etc.)

Ah! Bedtime.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Fainting can't have happened. Period. We can't fool with medicinal evidence, which is consistent with her having died through her cut jugular, and through asphyxiation FIRST (due to her cut airway, which would have taken about a minute) than blood loss, which takes much longer. And the cachous show that she died very quickly. (And yes, I've talked to doctors about this, to more than one.)

Perhaps I can try yet another reenactment using your version this time. Ironically, it has been exactly 1 year (tomorrow) since I've done the last one.

Lynn, you have the most understanding wife in the entire world. ;-)

He may also have used a Vulcan neck pinch of sorts, as suggested years ago by Ivor Edwards, although this would not be a popular option for most Ripper commentators, as it would limit the known suspect pool down to only about Le Grand, so we'll skip that for the time being.

I thought a Vulcan neck pinch is like tickling people. I didn't know that Le Grand was an early trekkie, and that he liked to tickle people apart from stalking them. A real perv.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lynn,

You're forcing me to check my sources. How dare you! Thankfully, I now have a pdf of my Berner Street Murder pt 2 from Ripper Notes 27 on my computer. The most complete version of Dr. Blackwell's inquest testimony actually appeared in the St. James Gazette. Here's what it said...

In reply to a juryman, who asked
whether he could give any information
as to whether the throat was cut
while the woman was lying down or
standing up, the doctor said: I formed
the opinion that probably the murderer
took hold of the silk scarf, which
was tightly knotted, and pulled the
woman backwards, and cut her throat
in that way. The position of the blood
would indicate that her throat was cut
when she was lying down or as she
fell. It is, perhaps, most probable that
she was on the ground first before her
throat was cut.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Fainting can't have happened. Period. We can't fool with medicinal evidence, which is consistent with her having died through her cut jugular, and through asphyxiation FIRST (due to her cut airway, which would have taken about a minute) than blood loss, which takes much longer. And the cachous show that she died very quickly. (And yes, I've talked to doctors about this, to more than one.)

A woman can't die of asphyxiation or blood loss after having fainted or while unconscious?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

can't die of asphyxiation or blood loss after having fainted or while unconscious?

It's the cachous that primarily belie that she fainted, as she would have dropped them in that case. Plus the cachous are providing evidence that it all happened VERY swiftly, AKA stranglehold by an arm (which is a piece of cake to do by the way) as the most plausible way of incapacitating her, possibly cutting off her airway with his arm while bringing her down. She might have started clasping her hands with the cachous already during the stranglehold, and kept having convulsions while she was dying of asphyxiation when he cut her jugular.
She died of asphyxiation due to her airway having been severed, which is a cause of death fully consistent with her hands having clenched the cachous in her death convulsions (then possibly slightly relaxed, when she was dead).
She died by asphyxiation because it only takes about a minute or two. Death by blood loss takes a while. I assume that from the jugular it's the quickest blood loss because it has a lot of pressure, but I happen to know of a friend of a friend who died by blood loss (from his waist) from a shark attack in South Africa in 2003 and it took about 10'min., there was even time for an ambulance to arrive.

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm not saying you're wrong, Maria, but keep in mind the cachous was wrapped in paper tissue and lodged between her thumb and forefinger, so may not have fallen out regardless.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Tom. Thanks. I think that is certainly preferable to having her fall straight backwards as that would get blood all over the assailant; and, either would be preferable to being cut whilst standing upright.

But I wonder why the take down in the film would not work? It accounts for everything except, of course, the shoulder bruising. Dr. Phillips took great pains, as I recall, to discuss this.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

punctus contra punctum

Hello Maria.

"It's the cachous that primarily belie that she fainted, as she would have dropped them in that case."

Seems correct. We need something causing her to tighten her hands but not relax them.

"Plus the cachous are providing evidence that it all happened VERY swiftly,"

Well, it certainly seems that way to me.

"AKA stranglehold by an arm (which is a piece of cake to do by the way) as the most plausible way of incapacitating her, possibly cutting off her airway with his arm while bringing her down."

This would work well, but would it account for the location and tension in the scarf's knot?

Cheers.
LC