Signs of suffocation?

[mariab]

No idea why I wrote she was lying on her stomach. (It was in the middle of the night and I hadn't slept for almost 2 days.) It's common knowledge that Stride was lying on her left side, while the stomach is located to the right!

[lynn cates]

Whew!

Hello Tom. Thanks. Thought there was new information of which I was unaware. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all, Liz at no point would have been lying on her stomach. The mud evidenc, as Lynn mentions, rules that out. That's not to say she was lying on her side when the killer left her, as she was when Blackwell got there.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

views

Hello Maria.

"the tension in the scarf's knot happened when he lifted her head to cut her throat, as she was lying on the ground on her stomach"

If Liz is on her stomach, why no mud on that part of her dress?

"The evidence proves this, as the knife followed the alignment of the scarf, even partly cutting the scarf too as it went along her throat."

But the same thing can be said for my film. By grabbing the scarf's knot it tightened and the scarf itself was taut right along the cutting line.

"you filmed the scene with both your back and your wife's back to the camera"

Hope to correct that and add several observations about the scarf, position, etc. Hopefully, this can be fine tuned with you and Tom by email. I shall begin collating soon.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

No Tom, had she fainted for good, she would have gone totally limp, let loose of all grip. There are even elderly or epileptic people who faint and lose their fake teeth out of their mouth.

Lynn, the tension in the scarf's knot happened when he lifted her head to cut her throat, as she was lying on the ground on her stomach. The evidence proves this, as the knife followed the alignment of the scarf, even partly cutting the scarf too as it went along her throat.

Quote Lynn Cates:
But I wonder why the take down in the film would not work?
Problem is, Lynn, that you filmed the scene with both your back and your wife's back to the camera, so it's fairly imposible to see what you're doing. ;-)

[lynn cates]

punctus contra punctum

Hello Maria.

"It's the cachous that primarily belie that she fainted, as she would have dropped them in that case."

Seems correct. We need something causing her to tighten her hands but not relax them.

"Plus the cachous are providing evidence that it all happened VERY swiftly,"

Well, it certainly seems that way to me.

"AKA stranglehold by an arm (which is a piece of cake to do by the way) as the most plausible way of incapacitating her, possibly cutting off her airway with his arm while bringing her down."

This would work well, but would it account for the location and tension in the scarf's knot?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Tom. Thanks. I think that is certainly preferable to having her fall straight backwards as that would get blood all over the assailant; and, either would be preferable to being cut whilst standing upright.

But I wonder why the take down in the film would not work? It accounts for everything except, of course, the shoulder bruising. Dr. Phillips took great pains, as I recall, to discuss this.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm not saying you're wrong, Maria, but keep in mind the cachous was wrapped in paper tissue and lodged between her thumb and forefinger, so may not have fallen out regardless.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

can't die of asphyxiation or blood loss after having fainted or while unconscious?

It's the cachous that primarily belie that she fainted, as she would have dropped them in that case. Plus the cachous are providing evidence that it all happened VERY swiftly, AKA stranglehold by an arm (which is a piece of cake to do by the way) as the most plausible way of incapacitating her, possibly cutting off her airway with his arm while bringing her down. She might have started clasping her hands with the cachous already during the stranglehold, and kept having convulsions while she was dying of asphyxiation when he cut her jugular.
She died of asphyxiation due to her airway having been severed, which is a cause of death fully consistent with her hands having clenched the cachous in her death convulsions (then possibly slightly relaxed, when she was dead).
She died by asphyxiation because it only takes about a minute or two. Death by blood loss takes a while. I assume that from the jugular it's the quickest blood loss because it has a lot of pressure, but I happen to know of a friend of a friend who died by blood loss (from his waist) from a shark attack in South Africa in 2003 and it took about 10'min., there was even time for an ambulance to arrive.

[Tom_Wescott]

Fainting can't have happened. Period. We can't fool with medicinal evidence, which is consistent with her having died through her cut jugular, and through asphyxiation FIRST (due to her cut airway, which would have taken about a minute) than blood loss, which takes much longer. And the cachous show that she died very quickly. (And yes, I've talked to doctors about this, to more than one.)

A woman can't die of asphyxiation or blood loss after having fainted or while unconscious?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lynn,

You're forcing me to check my sources. How dare you! Thankfully, I now have a pdf of my Berner Street Murder pt 2 from Ripper Notes 27 on my computer. The most complete version of Dr. Blackwell's inquest testimony actually appeared in the St. James Gazette. Here's what it said...

In reply to a juryman, who asked
whether he could give any information
as to whether the throat was cut
while the woman was lying down or
standing up, the doctor said: I formed
the opinion that probably the murderer
took hold of the silk scarf, which
was tightly knotted, and pulled the
woman backwards, and cut her throat
in that way. The position of the blood
would indicate that her throat was cut
when she was lying down or as she
fell. It is, perhaps, most probable that
she was on the ground first before her
throat was cut.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Fainting can't have happened. Period. We can't fool with medicinal evidence, which is consistent with her having died through her cut jugular, and through asphyxiation FIRST (due to her cut airway, which would have taken about a minute) than blood loss, which takes much longer. And the cachous show that she died very quickly. (And yes, I've talked to doctors about this, to more than one.)

Perhaps I can try yet another reenactment using your version this time. Ironically, it has been exactly 1 year (tomorrow) since I've done the last one.

Lynn, you have the most understanding wife in the entire world. ;-)

He may also have used a Vulcan neck pinch of sorts, as suggested years ago by Ivor Edwards, although this would not be a popular option for most Ripper commentators, as it would limit the known suspect pool down to only about Le Grand, so we'll skip that for the time being.

I thought a Vulcan neck pinch is like tickling people. I didn't know that Le Grand was an early trekkie, and that he liked to tickle people apart from stalking them. A real perv.

[lynn cates]

DT

Hello Tom. I checked the DT and did not see the part about likely. Here it is;

"A Juror: Can you say whether the throat was cut before or after the deceased fell to the ground? - I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground. The blood would have spurted about if the act had been committed while she was standing up."

He seems torn. Of course, he clearly rules out standing bolt upright. He's right. Standing straight would cause a mess on the wall.

I disagree only in that I think Liz was rotating as he pulled. You might have another go at my film as that explains my idea. (Of course, my wife did not rotate enough, given safety concerns, etc.)

Ah! Bedtime.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

He stated she was either cut while falling, or on the ground, and stated that on the ground was the most likely of the two.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

Blackwell

Hello Tom. But did not Blackwell think Liz was cut whilst falling? Moreover, he envisioned a quick take down, from behind.

Cheers.
LC