How about this quick theory!

[Abby Normal]

Hi CD,

Thanks for the clarification. I don't see any mystery surrounding BS man's ability to coax Stride into the yard after the initial attack witnessed by Schwartz. If he was the ripper, he'd have a knife with him, which he could have used as a threat, e.g. "I'm not going to hurt you, I just want free sex, but I'll use this if you scream any more". We don't know that she didn't continue scream after she was forced/enticed into the yard. Remember that no one other than Schwartz appeared to have heard the first screams. If nobody heard those, for whatever reason, they needn't have heard any later ones.

I'm not persuaded at all by the idea that she went into the yard willingly, with no thought of danger. Even if the BS man did attack her only for the ripper to turn up a few minutes later in the guise of a client (what beastly misfortune), she was very unlikely to be in a relaxed state for soliciting. It seems incredibly unlikely that she'd even remain in that spot after been roughed up at the hands of BS man.

As for "Pipeman", there is no evidence that he "returned to the scene" after running away in the same direction of Schwartz. He was evidently just as perturbed as Schwartz was by the spectacle, and departed the scene for the same reason.



Do some research into serial killers, and you'll discover that the steps taken to lay a "false trail" have often involved a lot of effort on the part of the killer, Lechmere. "Fantasy stuff" it most assuredly is not. I don't know how "overriding" the killer's need was in this case, but the suggestion that he took advantage of anti-semitic feelings in the district is most assuredly not to be dismissed. Frankly, if the killer had any intelligence at all, it would be unusual if he did not.

Regards,
Ben

Hi Ben

Even if the BS man did attack her only for the ripper to turn up a few minutes later in the guise of a client (what beastly misfortune), she was very unlikely to be in a relaxed state for soliciting. It seems incredibly unlikely that she'd even remain in that spot after been roughed up at the hands of BS man.

Absolutely. I have thought and stated the same. I doubt she would be in any mood for action so soon after being attacked. And yes she was "attacked" by BS man, or for those who don't like that word then "physically assaulted". There are no red flags in terms of the credibility of IS and what he saw, so if a women is found murdered minutes later after a credible witness sees her being attacked then it is clearly obvious that the most likely candidate for her murderer is the suspect that was seen assaulting her.

[caz]

2) Back to Stride...

BS may or may not have gone on to kill Stride, although I do think the murder itself fits snugly into the ripper series, so if BS did it, I have no problem with BS being Jack.

I do feel people are being too dogmatic when they say BS isn't Jack-like (whatever that means - who knows what he was like when there were no clear witnesses to his initial approach in the cases of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly?), or that two 'attacks' on a woman like Stride in the space of 15 mins were not feasible.

What if Jack took advantage in each case of a situation where a victim appeared to be in some trouble, or in need of some assistance? Nichols looking for doss money - for a fourth time; Chapman tired and sick; Eddowes in need of a pee, some money to take home and possibly more drink; and Kelly in need of sixpence towards her next meal, drink or landlord demand?

And there was Stride, being manhandled by BS - just the ticket. So if BS wasn't Jack, the real deal could have strolled over and offered to help, like Peter Kurten did in one case I believe. And bang goes the idea of two coincidental 'attacks'. The second would have been a direct result of the first. Don't tell me serial prostitute killers would have had a hard time finding any to 'rescue' from assault.

How Stride would have reacted in such a situation, and how she ended up dead, is of course just more to speculate about.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

BS

Hello Caz.

"I do feel people are being too dogmatic when they say BS isn't Jack-like (whatever that means . . . .)"

Completely agree. Not sure what that means either.

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm.

"he's not the stopping type, only a switch of M.O"

Are you thinking that, perhaps, he became a poisoner?

Cheers.
LC

ha ha no
because to put G.Chapman in the frame, i'd need to adjust my theory to suit him, my theory here is based on a joe average East Ender, someone like GH, BLOTCHY FACE or BS

[lynn cates]

need an adjustment?

Hello Malcolm. Yes, I HATE theory adjustments. It's almost enough to make a man give up theorising--a woman, too.

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Hello Caz.

"I do feel people are being too dogmatic when they say BS isn't Jack-like (whatever that means . . . .)"

Completely agree. Not sure what that means either.

Cheers.
LC

It means that this isn't the way JTR would normally behave, i agree, but this may be the exception, especially if JTR had drunk too much by mistake.

Whitechapel was full of boozers, most people back then drank to some degree, especially a young working class bloke.

there is also no evidence to say how drunk he was, if even he was, ``he looked like he was staggering``, that's not enough, but it's worth mentioning that Blotchy face looked drunk too !!!!

BS saw Schwartz as soon as he turned around, so my guess is that he wasn't too drunk, more like getting aggressive after say drinking 4 pints or so,
but definitely not blind drunk like those young nighclub idiots on ``police camera action``
.

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm. Yes, I HATE theory adjustments. It's almost enough to make a man give up theorising--a woman, too.

Cheers.
LC

oh i have a theory for him too

but right now i'm in H mode, H mode seems more realistic anyway,
Chapman looks seriously guilty, but he doesn't fit the crimes at all.

As a guess i would say that BS was semi-drunk only and starting to recover before killing Eddowes..... The sort of drunk when a friend sais, ``you're going red in the face and starting to talk a load of rubbish ``...... ha ha! you know, it's just starting to hit you

[lynn cates]

questions, questions

Hello Malcolm.

"It means that this isn't the way JTR would normally behave"

Which brings up the question, "How would JTR normally behave?"

Of course, this, in turn, would lead directly to my personal favourite: "How do we KNOW that there was a JTR?"

Cheers.
LC

[Ben]

so if a women is found murdered minutes later after a credible witness sees her being attacked then it is clearly obvious that the most likely candidate for her murderer is the suspect that was seen assaulting her.

Exactly, Abby.

It is not as though anyone has ruled out the possibility that somebody arrived after BS, but the overwhelmingly probable explanation is that Stride was murdered by the BS man. All murders are preceded by an assault of some description, and here we have evidence of a pre-murder assault, so why resist the conclusion that they were connected? And the idea that Stride would remain rooted to the spot afterwards and immediately convert into relaxed mode for a second, secretly murderous man, is deeply implausible, as you note.

All the best,
Ben

[Abby Normal]

Exactly, Abby.

It is not as though anyone has ruled out the possibility that somebody arrived after BS, but the overwhelmingly probable explanation is that Stride was murdered by the BS man. All murders are preceded by an assault of some description, and here we have evidence of a pre-murder assault, so why resist the conclusion that they were connected? And the idea that Stride would remain rooted to the spot afterwards and immediately convert into relaxed mode for a second, secretly murderous man, is deeply implausible, as you note.

All the best,
Ben

Hi Ben
Yup. And what are the chances that after a man assualts a women in the street that the very next series of events would be that he would leave and she would stay, non-plussed?
I think chances are she would be leaving quickly to get away from him and/or find help from a PC.

[mariab]

I do feel people are being too dogmatic when they say BS isn't Jack-like (whatever that means - who knows what he was like when there were no clear witnesses to his initial approach in the cases of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly?)

I too agree with Caz and Lynn here.

What if Jack took advantage in each case of a situation where a victim appeared to be in some trouble, or in need of some assistance? Nichols looking for doss money - for a fourth time; Chapman tired and sick; Eddowes in need of a pee, some money to take home and possibly more drink; and Kelly in need of sixpence towards her next meal, drink or landlord demand?

Yes, this too makes sense.

[c.d.]

Hello Jason.

"So she went for a pee while walking with a gentleman friend?"

No, for then her bladder would have been empty. I am suggesting that she was under pressure and so "plying a trade" would have been out of the question.

Cheers.
LC

Only if she was drinking out of a bottle at the time.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi Ben
Yup. And what are the chances that after a man assualts a women in the street that the very next series of events would be that he would leave and she would stay, non-plussed?
I think chances are she would be leaving quickly to get away from him and/or find help from a PC.

Hi Ben and Abby,

I doubt highly that this was the first time that Liz got hassled on the street. This "assault" or "vicious attack" consisted solely of being thrown to the ground. That is it and it could have been unintentional. And apparently it was not hard enough to scatter her cachous.

If anybody needed to worry about someone going to get help from the nearest P.C. it was the BS man. Surely it must have crossed his mind that Schwartz and/or the Pipe Man could be high tailing it to find one. At this point, he is guilty of a crime that would probably put him in jail for a few days but you have him remaining on the scene threatening Liz with a knife to get her to go back into the yard. Not very smart on his part.

As for screams, Mrs. Diemschutz and was it Morris Eagle? went out of their way to testify that they felt certain they would have heard something over the singing but they did not. No argument. No screams. Liz not roughed up and holding cachous. All inconsistent with any kind of vicious attack.

c.d.

[c.d.]

If the BS man was Jack, up until this point he has remained unknown. Now he is seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. If he left the scene at this point, he is only guilty of throwing a prostitute to the ground. Yet for some reason he has the bravado to carry out the murder anyway. Somehow the bravado deserts him before he can mutilate her. That seems rather inconsistent.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

I do feel people are being too dogmatic when they say BS isn't Jack-like (whatever that means - who knows what he was like when there were no clear witnesses to his initial approach in the cases of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly?)

Hi Caz. They are indeed being too dogmatic, particularly in light of the 'auditory' witness in Hanbury Street, Albert Cadosch (who was a young man in his 20's and NOT the old man we imagine). He heard a couple talking, someone say 'no' and then a thud against the fence. Schwartz saw a couple talking, Stride said 'no' and hit the pavement.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott