How about this quick theory!

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Thanks for the clarification. I don't see any mystery surrounding BS man's ability to coax Stride into the yard after the initial attack witnessed by Schwartz. If he was the ripper, he'd have a knife with him, which he could have used as a threat, e.g. "I'm not going to hurt you, I just want free sex, but I'll use this if you scream any more". We don't know that she didn't continue scream after she was forced/enticed into the yard. Remember that no one other than Schwartz appeared to have heard the first screams. If nobody heard those, for whatever reason, they needn't have heard any later ones.

I'm not persuaded at all by the idea that she went into the yard willingly, with no thought of danger. Even if the BS man did attack her only for the ripper to turn up a few minutes later in the guise of a client (what beastly misfortune), she was very unlikely to be in a relaxed state for soliciting. It seems incredibly unlikely that she'd even remain in that spot after been roughed up at the hands of BS man.

As for "Pipeman", there is no evidence that he "returned to the scene" after running away in the same direction of Schwartz. He was evidently just as perturbed as Schwartz was by the spectacle, and departed the scene for the same reason.

Unless he felt the overriding need to kill someone near the club to lay a false anti-Jewish trail - which I think is just way too improbable, almost fantasy stuff, and making more out of this than there is.

Do some research into serial killers, and you'll discover that the steps taken to lay a "false trail" have often involved a lot of effort on the part of the killer, Lechmere. "Fantasy stuff" it most assuredly is not. I don't know how "overriding" the killer's need was in this case, but the suggestion that he took advantage of anti-semitic feelings in the district is most assuredly not to be dismissed. Frankly, if the killer had any intelligence at all, it would be unusual if he did not.

Regards,
Ben

[lynn cates]

losing the thread

Hello Greg. I do see your point; however, "I expect she was allowed to go to the loo" is, as you point out, pure speculation.

Nor do I want to carry it too far--again, as you say.

And, although this thread does not bear Liz's name, I fear we have drifted from the spirit of this thread. Hence I must be a good boy and keep quiet.

Cheers.
LC

[jason_c]

Hello Jason.

"So she went for a pee while walking with a gentleman friend?"

No, for then her bladder would have been empty. I am suggesting that she was under pressure and so "plying a trade" would have been out of the question.

Cheers.
LC

Your saying it was impossible for her to have sex?


This bladder of hers wouldnt rule out oral sex though.

[Malcolm X]

And that's been the situation for the past 15 years that I know of, you can check all the archive disks. There never will be a final word, some have tried, and some are still trying. Peripheral issues are always expanding but the central core questions remain the same as they always have, on Casebook at least.
Prettymuch everything is open to debate, and there's nothing wrong with rehashing everything every once in a while, but yes it can get tiresome for those of us who have been around, and around, and around...
:-)

Regards, Jon S.

maybe if JTR had killed 40 women then we'd have loads more to talk about

[GregBaron]

Guilty as charged...

If she craved water because she was dehydrated from alcohol, I think that she could drink from a fountain.

Thanks Ruby. I suppose there are several ways she could have imbibed more of whatever it was....

And, although this thread does not bear Liz's name, I fear we have drifted from the spirit of this thread. Hence I must be a good boy and keep quiet.

Yes Lynn I'm guilty of thread hijacking for which we know the punishment............Apologies all........I'll keep quiet now too and return it to the Stridites..........


Greg

[Malcolm X]

ok if we're all a bit bored, what we really need to research next is:-

1..... are there any more mutilations or cut throat style street murders anywhere in the U.K after 1888.

because i'm thinking if JTR carried on living here, that he maybe downgraded to a cut-throat style street killer only, whatever the case, if he was a local man he'd definitely kill again, but more sensibly, much further away from home and downgraded too, you'd be looking for murdered prostitutes in somewhere like Liverpool, on the main train route out of London

BECAUSE anyone who is a fan of the dreaded `GH` will need a damn good excuse to explain away no more murders after 1889, i think that this really does weaken GH....ENORMOUSLY, for me he has to be another GH and definitely not Toppy, unfortunately this GH looks a bit too much like Toppy.

the police would have checked out this mystery GH very thoroughly, so it has to be either Toppy or another GH, YOU CAN NOT ESCAPE THIS!
therefore, this mystery GH is not Blotchy face or a foreign sailor !

the only cold comfort you have if you are a Toppy man is :- He was now far too well known to the police and media to ever kill again..... but this is quite weak, because he could countinue quite easily, far away from home !

other considerations

1..... maybe Toppy was BS, but JTR was Pipeman instead, it's a possibility i suppose, but these 2 working together as a team is a bit too far fetched for my liking.

even so, any Toppy fan must now look very closely indeed at the rest of his life, and definitley look for more murders too

[lynn cates]

hold on there

Hello Malcolm. What about the argument that "serial killers sometimes just stop"? (Not that I subscribe to that.)

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Malcolm. I noticed you keep coming up with viable ideas, but then dismissing them because they seem too 'far fetched' to you, which means they don't fit your personal profile of JTR. Perhaps you should consider changing your profile, or even disposing of it altogether for the time being, to allow yourself to consider more ideas? I'm not being a Phil H here, I'm just saying it seems that you WANT to look at the case from different perspectives, but are having a hard time giving yourself permission.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ben]

What about the argument that "serial killers sometimes just stop"?

Which is absolutely the case, Lynn.

I've just been flicking through Bruce Paley's reproduction of the Ripper Project, conducted in the late 1980s by criminologists and investigators from the FBI, and noted that the following observation was made with regard to the apparent cessation of the crimes:

"Generally, crimes such as these cease because the perpetrator has come close to being identified, has been interviewed by the police, or has been arrested for some other offence"

All the best,
Ben

[Tom_Wescott]

What about the argument that "serial killers sometimes just stop"? (Not that I subscribe to that.)

Oh, but they do all the time. The murder for many of them is like sexual escapades, and as their sex drive decreases, so would their 'will' to risk capture for murder. During their murder cycles, the drive to kill over rides their instinct for self-preservation, but as the 'drive' decreases, it becomes no longer worth the energy or the risk. I'd say this occurs with more serial killers than it DOESN'T occur with, which is why so few are ever actually caught.

But do I think the Ripper had reached that point by Nov 1888? Of course not.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm. What about the argument that "serial killers sometimes just stop"? (Not that I subscribe to that.)

Cheers.
LC

yes, well if we cant find anything then that's about all we can say, but i dont agree with this at all, and definitely not for a savage mutilator.... he's not the stopping type, only a switch of M.O

the Ripper either left the area, died or went insane, i doubt he went insane because the graffito reflects intelligence, cunning and sanity and he definitely doesn't seem physically unfit, my guess is that he left the area.

Left the area a maximum of a year after the last murder.

the Stride murder could indeed be a massive smoke screen, a mirage that is distracting us, but the problem is we still have this damned Graffito; so it's very hard to separate these murders and BS looks a bit too much like EDDOWE'S suspect, Blotchy Face and probably GH too.

you can bet that this JTR is far simpler than it seems, but i'm stumped for sure, because this Joe Average local might have a Neo-nazi mindset, like a victorian working class version of a ``Skin Head``, but so did so many others and the Jews have never been popular, but what i refuse to accept, is a local man like this stopping killing.

but for sure, Toppy/another GH is lieing like crazy, he was definitely there that night but lieing even more than in Gary Wroe's excellent book, so right now i'd say that GH is JTR, but we're missing so much more

1.....there might be 2 GH staying at the Victoria homes
2.....our Toppy pretended to be this eye witness, took credit for it,
we need to find out when he first said that he was this JTR witness
3.....Toppy is JTR, if so we need to find out far more

[lynn cates]

serial killers

Hello Ben and Tom. Yes, I suppose that sexual serial killers sometimes just stop.

Now, if only we could find a sexual serial killer linked to the autumn of terror. (heh-heh)

Cheers.

LC

[Malcolm X]

Oh, but they do all the time. The murder for many of them is like sexual escapades, and as their sex drive decreases, so would their 'will' to risk capture for murder. During their murder cycles, the drive to kill over rides their instinct for self-preservation, but as the 'drive' decreases, it becomes no longer worth the energy or the risk. I'd say this occurs with more serial killers than it DOESN'T occur with, which is why so few are ever actually caught.

But do I think the Ripper had reached that point by Nov 1888? Of course not.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

yes exactly, this does not apply here, the only way JTR would stop ( other than already mentioned) is if the ``Local ``police knew him too well and were close to arresting him, killing up north is dodgy too, the U.K is far too small, it's only really safe to kill abroad.

this may be the case for our Toppy too, who knows, he maybe didn't kill abroad because he probably couldn't afford to travel/ or he's too local in his job/family life, but for GH to carry on as said, he'd probably need to downgrade his murders; but even this is risky because he only needs to be positvely identified once more, in say Liverpool etc, right beside a murder....... bang that's it, he's JTR.

DID GOING TO THE POLICE SERIOUSLY COMPROMISE HIMSELF..... yes indeed, they definitely know who he is from now on, but is this enough to stop JTR ?........ no idea, but it might be.

that is if JTR is him.......................ha ha !

[lynn cates]

poison

Hello Malcolm.

"he's not the stopping type, only a switch of M.O"

Are you thinking that, perhaps, he became a poisoner?

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Couple of quick points, relating back to recent posts:

1) If Eddowes needed a pee when she met her end, she may have been trying to kill two birds with one stone when she bumped into her killer and may have led him off to Mitre Sq so she could find a dark corner to relieve herself, before offering to relieve Jack - of a few pence. We know what happened before she could accomplish either.

Love,

Caz
X

PS 2) to follow