The Murder of Elizabeth Stride

[mariab]

I too have often wondered about what Curious is quoting about Dr. Phillips having noticed bruising similar to the ones on Stride's both shoulders on two previous occasions, and if this pertains to the other Ripper murders.

The chokehold was discussed in detail in past forums. I found it fascinating and wondered where one would learn such a thing?, especially, for example, a low class Polish Jew.

I don't endorse the theory of the Polish Jew, but my answer to your question would be obvious: street fights and the army.

It seems to me that Liz’s throat wounds would be counter to a chokehold and then slicing scenario.

Not at all. Tom Wescott in The Berner Street mystery Part 2 in Ripper Notes #27 presents a very plausible scenario for chokehold and slicing, and Don Souden in Suede and the Ripper (unfortunately I don't have the reference to which Ripperologist issue this article appeared) makes a case of how the cuts to the throat of all the Ripper slayings are essentially not dissimilar.

I think others also in the past have suggested Liz had previous bruising perhaps from Kelly giving her a beating………?

Bruising of the shoulders would not have come from a beating. A beating would have left bruises on the face too. Stride was not exactly living a sedentary life, so this bruising might have come from any number of encounters with a john, on the evening of September 30 or a day or two earlier. (Bruises take about 48 hours to form, depending on how deep the heamatoma goes and how much body fat the person in question carries.)

[mariab]

I would say that Phillips just meant he had looked at the discolouration again twice after he first saw it.

Do you mean that Dr. Phillips' comment refers to the fact that Stride's bruises on both shoulders possibly materialized postmortem?

As for linguistics, the one that surprised me is Victorian officials using the word “kudos“.

With apologies for contributing to the highjacking of the thread.

[curious4]

I would say that Phillips just meant he had looked at the discolouration again twice after he first saw it.

We-ell, why? Did he think it might go away? I feel very sure that he used the word "since" meaning previously and was referring to the two previous murders.
But to (miss)quote Browning, at the time Phillips and God knew what he meant - now God only knows!

But if he did mean previously it adds strength to the case that Liz was a Ripper victim.
Cheers,
C4

[Jeff Leahy]

C4,

It seems to me that Liz’s throat wounds would be counter to a chokehold and then slicing scenario. I think others also in the past have suggested Liz had previous bruising perhaps from Kelly giving her a beating………?

Greg

I think you mean Kidney? You should check out Tom Wescotts examiner feature on that.

Pirate

[GregBaron]

Good points........

Thanks for those clarifications Mariab and I don't disagree with any of them..........some don't buy the chokehold and slice theory for Stride although I think the gentlemen you mentioned offered convincing arguments........I'm confused about the whole Stride affair quite frankly...

I'm not sure about street fights for the chokehold but army absolutely........and I wonder how many of the top suspects had some military training........?

I know Chapman had neck bruises that indicated a chokehold of some sort.....not sure about Stride......and chokeholds don't necessarily leave
marks as a full scale stranguation certainly would....

Greg

[GregBaron]

yes Kidney indeed....

Thanks Pirate Jack, yes I did mean Kidney.....

I did read Tom Westcott's article some time ago and found it very compelling.....

I think C4 has a good point about the bruising if in fact a chokehold
might leave such marks........

Semantics can be a quagmire certainly...


Greg

[curious4]

Thanks for those clarifications Mariab and I don't disagree with any of them..........some don't buy the chokehold and slice theory for Stride although I think the gentlemen you mentioned offered convincing arguments........I'm confused about the whole Stride affair quite frankly...

I'm not sure about street fights for the chokehold but army absolutely........and I wonder how many of the top suspects had some military training........?

I know Chapman had neck bruises that indicated a chokehold of some sort.....not sure about Stride......and chokeholds don't necessarily leave
marks as a full scale stranguation certainly would....

Greg

"There were two distinct bruises, each of the size of the top of a man´s thumb, on the forepart of the top of the chest" -Dr Philips at the inquest on Annie Chapman. Not talking about bruises caused by chokehold necessarily, just that both women had bruising on the chest by the collar-bone.

C4

[curious4]

Hello Greg,

Perhaps by reading the book lol? I believe I`ve read somewhere that the throat wound would disguise any strangulation marks? If she passed out, (and she wouldn´t have been able to cry out) she could be lowered to the ground and he could get on with his "work". Do we assume that the man who threw her to the ground was her killer? Would she then get up and follow him through the passage in the house and out to the backyard? Or was she rendered unconscious and dragged through (difficult to do silently).

She was reported to have had healing sores on her body, can´t remember anything about old bruises, but perhaps I`m wrong.

Regards,
C4

Just realised what I said here - getting my murders mixed up - perhaps I should stop trying to do three things at a time!!

[mariab]

I'm not sure about street fights for the chokehold

A chokehold is effective, easy to do, and a classic in school yard fights.

and I wonder how many of the top suspects had some military training........?

Hardly any of the suspects (as listed on casebook) qualify anymore, apart from Tumblety, Kozminski, perhaps Jacob Levy, and Barnett (the latter being a personal pet of mine, but pretty much un-researchable, in the criminal sense). We can add Le Grand to these, and that's pretty much it, in addition to the classic (and possibly more probable) “unknown local“. Tumblety had military training and was tall, Kozminski and Levy I personally don't endorse, Barnett was pretty strong from having carried heavy barrells with fish around all day when employed and possibly experienced in gutting fish, and Le Grand was tall and experienced in street fights and combat weapons/knives.

chokeholds don't necessarily leave marks as a full scale stranguation certainly would....

Precisely. That's why I'm going for the incapacitating through chokehold/bringing to the ground/then cutting her neck using her scarf to elevate her head scenario, which fits with the evidence left in situ, including the fact that she kept her left hand tight with a postmortem hold of the cachous. By the by, if I recall it correctly, I think that one (of several) scenario(s) proposed by Tom Wescott in his Ripper Notes 27 article doesn't think of a chokehold, but hypothesizes that Stride might have fainted from her scarf having been tightened. This was clearly not the fact, as we know that she kept her tight hold of the cachous, which points to peri-mortem convulsions of some kind, possibly due to her airway being restructed through the chokehold.

PS.: The Wescott Examiner 1 article is an absolute must read, as it corrects a host of misconceptions and misinterpretations pertaining to the Stride inquest, stubbornly and resistently surviving in Ripperology for decades.

[GregBaron]

Tight fisted!

Good stuff again Mariab...thanks...

Makes me wonder if JTR stumbled upon the chokehold by noticing it incapacitated victims when in his exploratory period......maybe with Tabram or somebody?

Also, let me make sure I have this straight, if someone is put in a chokehold to unconsciousness their extremities might tighten up and remain that way....? So there would be no relaxing once consciousness was lost? A tight fist remains a tight fist?

Finally, thanks C4 for clarifying also...I was completely baffled by your response....for a minute I was thinking Stride went into the Jewish club with BS man...........wow what a story that might make......!


Greg

[Chris]

We-ell, why? Did he think it might go away? I feel very sure that he used the word "since" meaning previously and was referring to the two previous murders.

I can only guess that he thought the markings might develop post mortem. The use of the word "watch" might suggest he was looking for such a development.

I'm not convinced the word "since" has ever had the meaning of "before." That would be very strange, as it's the opposite of its usual meaning. I think "it happened eight years since" is really a kind of shorthand for "it is eight years since it happened."

In any case, had Phillips examined two previous victims? I can't see any reference to him in connection with Nichols or the earlier murders.

[mariab]

Makes me wonder if JTR stumbled upon the chokehold by noticing it incapacitated victims when in his exploratory period......maybe with Tabram or somebody?

Yes, in my opinion and according to the evidence I have a feeling that Tabram (and Kelly) put up a fight. And we know that Millwood escaped. (IF Millwood was indeed an early attempt.) Tabram was pretty “stout“ (again, that word), which would make her a bit harder to subdue.

Also, let me make sure I have this straight, if someone is put in a chokehold to unconsciousness their extremities might tighten up and remain that way....? So there would be no relaxing once consciousness was lost? A tight fist remains a tight fist?

That's why I'm not going into the “unconsciousness“ scenario, as in that case her hand would have relaxed and let the cachous drop. I picture it, according to the evidence left in situ, as Stride having convulsions from her airway being cut through a chokehold, then death convulsions by asphyxiation when her throat got cut.

[mariab]

In any case, had Phillips examined two previous victims? I can't see any reference to him in connection with Nichols or the earlier murders.

That's precisely one of the questions I've been wondering about since first acquainted with Ripperology!

[curious4]

Good stuff again Mariab...thanks...

Makes me wonder if JTR stumbled upon the chokehold by noticing it incapacitated victims when in his exploratory period......maybe with Tabram or somebody?

Also, let me make sure I have this straight, if someone is put in a chokehold to unconsciousness their extremities might tighten up and remain that way....? So there would be no relaxing once consciousness was lost? A tight fist remains a tight fist?

Finally, thanks C4 for clarifying also...I was completely baffled by your response....for a minute I was thinking Stride went into the Jewish club with BS man...........wow what a story that might make......!


Greg

Yes,Greg, brain meltdown! Would have made a great story, I agree! What I was trying to say was that there are approximately 20 minutes to account for between Liz being thrown to the ground and being found with her throat newly cut (and only half done if she is a Ripper victim). Jack worked fast if we are to believe the reports at the time, so plenty of time for him to approach her after she was attacked by pipeman´s friend, it would seem, so are we looking at the wrong suspects? Jack appears to have taken his victims completely by surprise, so beginning by throwing her to the ground doesn´t fit.

Yes, Chris and Maria, Phillips performed the autopsy on Chapman. Llewellyn did the autopsy on Mary Ann Nichols but as Phillips was the police surgeon it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that he was involved.

Cheers,
C4

[Phil H]

Jack worked fast if we are to believe the reports at the time, so plenty of time for him to approach her after she was attacked by pipeman´s friend, it would seem, so are we looking at the wrong suspects? Jack appears to have taken his victims completely by surprise, so beginning by throwing her to the ground doesn´t fit.

Or this is an indication that we are looking at the evidence/testimony in the wrong way. For instance, if "Jack" was NOT the killer, "beginning by throwing her to the ground" wouldn't fit, would it?

Phil