Liz Stride Re-Enactment

[mariab]

No Fish, I'm considering the possibility of a Le Grand cum accomplice scenario here. With the purpose of murder. JUST as a possibility, with the intention of researching it.

[Fisherman]

Aha! Tom´s suggestion! Been there, seen that, done that ... not my cup of tea, for reasons I have given before.
But interesting nevertheless!

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Yes, Tom's suggestion, with new information added by Lynn Cates, and with a couple ideas of mine. Which will be researched. If there are any positive or non positive results, I'll post them (possibly even next week).

[lynn cates]

stones

Hello Maria. You are right that Okhrana involvement is speculation. However, the cold blooded killing I suggest in this thread fits the body position as well as the domestic scenario espoused by Fisherman. Moreover, it gives us a good reason for Liz to be in the yard which is much weaker on the domestic view. The solicitation people can give an almost good reason for Liz to be in the yard, but they cannot account for the forensics of the body position.

Now, let's continue. Tom has shown that it is likely that a private detective agency tampered with the evidence and with a potential witness. Why would this occur? 2 possible reasons. 1. The agency itself is involved with the killing. (I find that unlikely.) 2. The one/s involved in the killing bungled it, leaving either a piece of evidence or an unwanted witness. I find that HIGHLY likely. Hence, given the Okhrana's track record of utilising local private detective agencies to assist them in their work, I find a better inductive probability in pursuing that line of investigation further.

To put it another way, every time I turn over a stone on Berner st, I find a new titbit that screams, "Keep going!"

Otherwise, I would not keep expending money on this thing. After all, you know my motto: "The Scots are the men that won't be payin' for nothing."

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Lynn,
by the by, I LOVE your motto "The Scots are the men that won't be payin' for nothing."!
Everything not yet researched is speculation, but the one great thing with Berner Street is that there are TONS of paths that can still be researched. (In comparison to, say, Miller's Court. As it happens, I suspect Barnett, but can I research him further? Unfortunately, no.)
Pertaining to the Okhrana's track record of utilising local private detective agencies to assist them in their activity, could you email me any possible information that you have from the secondary lit? Especially with names, and please, urgently if anything concrete is mentioned about Piotr Rachkovsky's activities in Paris. It has time until the weekend (Sunday is fine, as I'll start looking at the Paris Archives Nationales next Monday.)
Lynn Cates wrote:
The solicitation people can give an almost good reason for Liz to be in the yard, but they cannot account for the forensics of the body position.
Lynn, most probably NO solicitation took place in Duttfield's Yard. There was no time for this. Solicitation was probably solely used as a ploy to lead Stride into an “isolated“ place (as much as those existed in Victorian Whitechapel).

[lynn cates]

Andrieux

Hello Maria. Of course, Paris was the home of Rachkovski's Okhrana branch office.

Names? Well, a famous English anarchist, Fred Charles, swore and be darned that a French police official, Andrieux, exploded some bombs in Paris just to implicate anarchists. Andrieux wrote some memoirs so you might check there.

Good luck.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Forensics of the body position? With all due respect, I think we have given you several very plausible explanations to explain her body position but you have refused to accept them.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

plausible

Hello CD. Well, you've given me many scenarios, but none are plausible. To see what I mean, try reproducing them. (But please, none with cachous in Liz's mouth just prior to oral sex--unless your assailant wishes to see his life pass before his eyes.)

I look forward to your demo!

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

C.D. wrote:
Hi Lynn,
Forensics of the body position? With all due respect, I think we have given you several very plausible explanations to explain her body position but you have refused to accept them.
Damn straight.

[mariab]

Lynn,
I've already told you that I'll be very busy in Paris with my own research, plus I have a long proposal and a conference paper to prepare while there, both pertaining to pending deadlines. I can only spare 3 full days for the Ripperological research (out of not even 2 weeks). I don't have the time to seek out a volume of fancy mémoires and read them! If you wish me to do an efficient search, you'd have to cooperate, by going through your abundant lit and establishing a list of names pertaining to the affiliates of the Paris Okhrana.
You've given me 2 names, Fred Charles, and Andrieux (first name)? Is that all mentioned in the lit? Also, you mentioned that Butterworth went and consulted the archives at the Paris Musée de la Préfecture de Police, the one I'll be visiting. What does he say specifically about these archives in his book? Can you email me the details? So far I've located 2 inventaries for the files of the Police de Sûreté, one with names and one thematic (where I hope that it might include the Okhrana), but without a list of names, my search is pointless. It has time until Sunday, though. And don't worry, I'm supposed to be in Paris again in March/April, to continue with this.
I'll also ask Tom, he has Butterworth and Fishman, but I assume you have more books, plus Tom has limited internet access, and not at all during the weekend.

[mariab]

Lynn, names and addresses too, if possible.
Thank you.

[lynn cates]

schedule

Hello Maria. Given your tight schedule, why not postpone the search until spring? Perhaps we can have a decent list by then?

Perhaps this time, just familiarise yourself with the filing and storage system?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn, I know the inventaries and the functioning system of the Paris Archives Nationales in and out, I've been working there since the early`00s.(The storage system I don't need to know, since the boxes with documents are fetched to the researchers.) Plus I know most of their librarians fairly well. I can go through the entire (relevant) inventaries in half a day, IF I have some names/a list of names to look up. And I can order the most promising 6 boxes of files for the next day, to look up for an entire day. Provided that there are indeed files for the Okhrana and for criminal records in the fonds publics of the AN, and provided that the Okhrana files are not in Russian (which I can't read).
As for the archives at the Préfecture de Police, they seem to have only 2 inventaries for the period in question. I could totally manage the entire search in one day.
How about if you gave me the address of Piotr Rachkovski's Okhrana branch office, the full name of this Andrieux police official dude (was he a real police officer, or a private investigator, like Le Grand?), and if you could put (briefly transcribe) in an email or perhaps even scan the relevant book pages for ONLY the essential info pertaining to 1) the Okhrana having hired detective agencies, and pertaining to 2) the bombing organized by Andrieux in Paris?
Also, a quick and dirty way to find other names is to go through the index of your books hunting for French/Russian names, seeing if anything rings a bell to you. ('Cause it most definitely won't ring a bell to me.) We can start small, and expand the search in March, depending on my preliminary findings (if any). Obviously I'll also look up the Danish journalist (Jules Hansen) and Le Grand (and Ostrog) under all their different con names, both in the Police de Sûreté files and in the criminal records. And let's just hope that these are existent in (more or less) their entirety for the period in question, as listed, and not destroyed somehow. Otherwise it'll be a very short, disappointing search...
(I'll check out the link you emailed me during the weekend, and thank you so much for your help.)
Thank you SO very much, and apologies for stressing you out like this, but my curiosity is piqued, and I'd like to have at least a preliminary answer now. (By March, I could be dead...)

[harry]

Mariab,
There was a Russian,a doctor,Alexander Pedachenko,who is stated to have been suspected by Sir Basil Thompson of being the ripper.Sir Basil succeeded Magnachten,so presumably would have had ample chance to study the ripper files.Why he suspected Padachenko is not stated by the author.
As to rage,what of Stride's feelings.Surely she would have been severely shaken after the initial encounter,enough I would feel,that she would for quite a while,be suspicious of any suggestions made by any male.So leading or following anyone into the darkness of the yard would appear to be a very foolish thing to do.Regardless,one would expect her to be on her guard against further mistreatment,yet she must have let her guard down for some reason,enough to allow someone to get behind and subdue her,and I cannot see that someone being BS.

[lynn cates]

tempus fugit

Hello Maria. I think scans are a good idea. I'll see precisely what I can accomplish--or not.

Can you give me an exact time deadline in Greenwich mean time? If I send along everything by Saturday afternoon, will that work?

Cheers.
LC