Liz Stride Re-Enactment

[Monty]

Monty loves a good assumption...often ends up with egg on face.

Take Schwartz and I raise Cadosche, or Brown, or Long, or Richardson, or Hutchinson or...

Tread carefully.

Monty

[protohistorian]

Fisherman

Fisherman, I am still waiting for how a slit throat leads us to rage. Dave

[DVV]

Hi Dave,

don't know why, but as soon as somebody cuts my throat, I get angry.
Must be my Corsican blood, don't you think ?

Amitiés mon cher
David

[protohistorian]

You won't be angry long! Dave

[DVV]

Thanks for your good wishes, sir.
I knew I had to cool down.

[lynn cates]

Toppy

Hello DVV. Hmm, you must have bold tastes. What do you say to a Toppy thread? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Oh my dear Lynn, I miss the Toppy-thread more than I can say....

[mariab]

As a newbie, I don't get the reference to a Toppy thread.
Pertaining to BS, I have this Polyanna idea of researching Whitechapel pimps and criminals for physical description.

[Roy Corduroy]

Good evening Maria,

Toppy

See Hutchinson, George.

Pertaining to BS, I have this Polyanna idea of researching Whitechapel pimps and criminals for physical description

Well I could recommend The Fox and the Flies by Van Onselen, but isn't your required reading list already a bit heavy without piling on that 500 page whopper.

Roy

ps David, the Toppy Klatch is just waiting for you, monsieur.

[mariab]

Roy Cordyroy wrote:
See Hutchinson, George.
Ben and Rubyretro's favorite suspect? I've been through some Hutchinson threads, but no Toppy reference that I can recall of, apologies.
The Fox and the Flies by Van Onselen? VERY convincing book! There is not a simple shred of evidence that Silver was even in London during the time of the Whitechapel murders. (While I must admit I fairly sympathize with Van Onselen's political views, and 500 pages? I can chew that up in 2 evenings. If inclined.)
What I meant by “pimp research“ was looking up the physical descriptions (if any are featured) in the Marlborough Street Magistrates Court, The Old Bailey, and the newspapers' reports for similar incidents as with what (allegedly?) happened with BS. If I manage to find some time, I might try doing this during the winter...possibly.
And a good evening to you, Mr Roy Cordyroy.

[Roy Corduroy]

What I meant by “pimp research“ was looking up the physical descriptions (if any are featured) in the Marlborough Street Magistrates Court, The Old Bailey, and the newspapers' reports for similar incidents as with what (allegedly?) happened with BS.

Oh, okay, Maria.

Those things that BS (Jack the Ripper) did are in the Whitechapel murder files and newspaper clippings. Because poor dear Liz Stride, who didn't have a pimp, was the victim of a serial killer. Like the other unfortunates. But whether he was a pimp, or just a pimp cadet is not really my point. He could have been a sailor. An escaped lunatic on the loose. Someone with a way out.

Roy

[mariab]

To Roy Cordyroy:
I'm not suggesting that Liz Stride had a pimp! My pimp suspicions are generated through 1) the alleged familiarity observed in the interaction between BS and Stride, and 2) the fact that Pipeman's physical description fits with a certain pimp who involved himself in a big way into the subsequent investigation. Again, I'm not claiming I'm convinced of any theories resulting from any of this. I'm just interested in researching the people involved in the Berner Street case, including Schwartz and the veracity of his testimony.

[Roy Corduroy]

I'm not suggesting that Liz Stride had a pimp!

Okay, Maria and thank you for the reply.

My pimp suspicions are generated through 1) the alleged familiarity observed in the interaction between BS and Stride,

This is where I differ with some forum members, and indeed I part ways with some of the top authors, among them Evans, Tully & others who have suggested a domestic connexion. I don't see the circumstances having to point that way. Liz Stride had been interracting on the street, at night with men, for some years. The struggle, the muted screams, the little whispers about prayers, or not tonight - none of this - necessarily spells familiarity to me.

and 2) the fact that Pipeman's physical description fits with a certain pimp who involved himself in a big way into the subsequent investigation. Again, I'm not claiming I'm convinced of any theories resulting from any of this. I'm just interested in researching the people involved in the Berner Street case, including Schwartz and the veracity of his testimony

And again, I wish you the best in your research. I remember when I started, and in fact it was Van Onselen who launched me, for better or worse. That's why I try to slip in a word edgewise about him. But lets take your number 2 section and address it head on. You do realize, if one leans toward Israel Schwartz not being a bona fide witness, then Tall Man is up in smoke.

Roy

[mariab]

Thank you so much, Mr Roy Cordyroy.
Roy Cordyroy wrote:
I remember when I started, and in fact it was Van Onselen who launched me, for better or worse. That's why I try to slip in a word edgewise about him.
Interesting! As it happens, I've recently been to South Africa for a few weeks, and it was truly fascinating, in every possible aspect.
The way I got launched into Ripperology is even more embarrassing, as I got aware for the first time of the social implications of the case by watching... From Hell on TV! In each of my (short) visits to London, I was already craving for a Ripper tour, but didn't feel like joining a lot of Japanese tourists. Then, in the winter of 2009, while looking up true crime sites, I came upon casebook and it was more or less love at first sight, as I was completely astonished by the richness of the sources posted here online. I started visiting the site infrequently, then following the boards, and about a year and a half later, I joined. Since then I'm afraid there hasn't been one single day where I haven't, even briefly, logged in on casebook... (With apologies for the chatty, trite report.)

Roy Cordyroy wrote:
But lets take your number 2 section and address it head on. You do realize, if one leans toward Israel Schwartz not being a bona fide witness, then Tall Man is up in smoke.
Absolutely! But the problem is, as currently things go, it's a LOT more difficult to further research Israel Schwartz (as in: finding a list of the IWMC members, lists of sweaters, and Schwartz's past in Hungary, Poland, or wherever he came from; although we're currently conducting research in the Arbeter Fraint, and I would very much hope that Sam Flynn/Gareth Williams might accept to help out researching Schwartz in Central/East Europe). On the other side, as things go, next week I can easily attempt a little search in Paris pertaining to the Okhrana activities (also in connection with detective agencies) and to look up the Paris criminal records for the Okhrana, Charles Le Grand, and even Michael Ostrog. (As for the latter I strongly suspect that Ostrog might have been mixed up with Le Grand in certain police circles, as they used practically the same con name, and were both in Paris for a while.)

[harry]

I do not presuppose lies on the part of Schwartz at all,just the normal time lapse,and crime site circumstances that led to his information not being a hundred per cent true,and if posters do not know what those are by now,I'll not waste time by repeating them.
I do not neccessarily accept that it must have been two assailants,nor that BS initiated the scene at the gates,but what is obvious is that the attack in the yard is by a person who was intent on killing,and this intent is not shown in the incident between Stride and BS in Berner Street.BS had every opportunity to kill her there.
Reconstructions are usefull in some instances,but in this case it lacks the essential ingredient of intent to kill.One cannot substitute for the feelings and actions of a person who has that intent,or the actions and feelings of a victim who is subject to that intent.