A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[lynn cates]

no time, luv

Hello Ruby.

"Because either BSM, or Jtr or both robbed her of her money ? -with not robbery as their motive..but because they were poor, and they could."

And so, right AFTER being robbed, she shared a cachous as a sign of good will?

But perhaps the robbery was post mortem? So, there was time for rifling pockets for a few pence but no time for mutilation which, according to many ripperologists, was the main motivation?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD. But a locked club surely did not provide much shelter?

Supposing Liz were running from BS man and tried to get in but could not. Why stop and loiter? Why not run into the dark yard and hide?

Cheers.
LC

Pound on the door and yell for help. Besides, Liz might not have known that the club was locked.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

won't you come and let me in, cried the fair young maiden

Hello CD. But surely she would know upon trying the door?

Now, try to dovetail this with the BS story.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD. But surely she would know upon trying the door?

Now, try to dovetail this with the BS story.

Cheers.
LC

Jeez Lynn,

I feel like I am being interrogated by the gestapo. I am only trying to provide a reason why Liz might have been at the club other than soliciting. If she was aware that the club was filled with men, she might have believed that someone would come to her assistance. The same thought might have occurred to the BS man as well making him think twice about a further assault. Basically, any port in a storm. If the BS man did leave, she might have stayed there in case he came back.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

oops

Hello CD. Oops. Definitely not my intention. I am merely suggesting thought experiments for a lazy, rainy day. Sorry if it seemed forceful.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Oops. Definitely not my intention. I am merely suggesting thought experiments for a lazy, rainy day. Sorry if it seemed forceful.

Cheers.
LC

Sorry. I'm in a bad mood. I just spent a great deal of time filling out a health insurance application only to find out my information was not being saved.

I don't mind someone playing devil's advocate. In fact, it is a good thing to do and I do it myself. But if you are looking for a scenario where everything fits and dovetails perfectly, it ain't gonna happen.

Anyway, I am now going to try to improve my mood by watching football and drinking beer.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

dovetails and such

Hello CD. No problem

If only the solicitation theory could explain the forensics of the yard; and, if only the domestic theory could explain Liz's movements after Marshall's purported sighting. Now that would be a dovetailing!

Enjoy your diversions.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

C.D. wrote:
I am only trying to provide a reason why Liz might have been at the club other than soliciting. If she was aware that the club was filled with men, she might have believed that someone would come to her assistance. The same thought might have occurred to the BS man as well making him think twice about a further assault. Basically, any port in a storm. If the BS man did leave, she might have stayed there in case he came back.
I think C.D. has a point here. And to me the question is more, why Stride didn't just call it a night and went home? So hiding in Duttfields Yard means, 1) she either chose to wait for BS to leave at a relatively “safe“ place, or 2) she was waiting in the hope of solliciting IWMC members, whom she might have had sollicited before (even for less than 4d), or 3) she went inside the yard with a john.
As for seminal fluid, I think I recall that such was found in Nichols. Or was it Chapman? NO time at all to check the inquiries or anything else presently. As for Stride, it seems like, IF she spent the night of Sept. 30th with the same gentleman, they were seen in public places continuously all night, so, possibly, there might have been no time for intercourse to have taken place.
Gotta go on now, trying to call my German boss in Bayreuth, but the line's been busy all morning.

[lynn cates]

fluid answer

Hello Maria. The BS man scenario would work far better had he been chasing Liz down Berner from, say, Commercial rd. Was he?

Interestingly, NONE of the C5 had traces of semen--internally or externally, at least such was not included in the post mortems. In the cases of Polly and Annie, that may indicate a slackness of business. Recall: both had hinted that they were going out to solicit. Polly was seen heading down Whitechapel high st about an hour before she was found dead and mutilated. Annie, if she was indeed killed at 5:30, had been at it awhile--apparently without success.

Of course, lack of semen traces in the other 3 may indicate something else.

Question: did any of C3-C5 explicitly indicate they were soliciting?

Second question: it is sometimes alleged about Liz that she bought a flower and cachous to enhance business. Does this initial outlay (poor choice of words?) sit well with your scenario of cut rates for poor socialists?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello, Lynn.
Nichols and Chapman most probably did not have intercourse in the night of their death, but Tabram might have (with her soldier john). Still, I'm almost positive that in one or several of these 3 there were traces of seminal fluid found. I remember reading about it somewhere. I'm very sorry, but NO time whatsoever to research any of this presently, even if Sugden's lying just 5 feet from me right now. (The book, not Sugden himself! Wouldn't the latter be interesting/helpful if I wanted to ask him a question? His book's inside the little trolley case where I keep most of my stuff, open in a corner of the living room floor, I can totally see it from here, but NO time whatsoever to open it.)
As for Stride's alleged self-improvement of her physical appearance: cachous yes, flower: not. The flower I'm positive she wouldn't have been able to afford, thus it must be a gift by some man. Plus it's a thing men do traditionally.
Another possibility for the cachous being out, which no one is considering, is: Stride might have been hiding/waiting inside the yard for whatever reason, and she might have taken one cachou out for feeling hungry or nervous, before being approached by her killer. It might have been as simple as that.

I just missed my German boss in Bayreuth (who “earlybirded“ it today) and I STILL haven't written him the long report due, but I just did something ingeniously bold! After having dealt for months with the most dumb, disorganized/lazy French person at the Paris Opéra Comique, waiting for her to move her a*s for 3 months while she keeps displacing her email messages, never reaches her godamn desk, takes 3 hour lunches in the typical French fashion (sorry, Ruby), I ingeniously went to the source directly: I just emailed the Opéra Comique director personally, with a proposition he simply can't refuse. (And no, it's not solliciting. It's about a production of 2 operas we'd like to arrange, with the new materials recently found by yours truly.) One hitch though, I just guessed his email-address through the context, so I'm not sure it's the correct one. (As the French are not very internet-friendly, and ridiculously secretive about their email addresses.) So I hope that my message doesn't bounce back in a couple of days. But even if so, I'll research this further.
When I first started this project 4 months ago, I thought it a good idea to appoint some French colleagues, so as to have local support. So NOT: It took me an entire month to motivate a French colleague (a doctoral candidate who's one of the most energetic I know in our age-group) to godamn write one godamn paragraph of a message to the lady-dramaturge she knows at the Opéra Comique. Then of course, and not very surprisingly, the lady in question turned out to be the most worthless, unreliable person on earth. But realizing this, I took all responsibility in my own hands, supported by my bosses in Bayreuth and Chicago, who don't like to waste their time either. And it looks like things have started to move now (albeit still in the typical French, SLOOOOOW way).

[lynn cates]

accoutrements

Hello Maria. Very well. When you are at leisure, perhaps you can find the reference. No hurry.

Is your position that Liz was given a flower by a customer? You realise that such would not be the norm, but, of course, possible. (If Liz did NOT purchase the flower, then Fish's model jumps up many steps.)

Cachous for hunger? Ever tasted one? Uggh.

But perhaps, as you say, she was nervous? But wouldn't this work better if she had just eluded BS man and was retreating into the darkness and "safety" of the yard? And if this had occurred and she were attacked suddenly by BS man or whomever, should not her body be rotated 180 degrees, feet pointed towards side door?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello, Lynn.
My opinion is that Stride was given the flower by the man she was seen having a good time with in the evening of Sept. 30th, who might have been a date/love-interest or a special client. Exactly as you're saying, a typical john would obviously not have payed for a flower.
I've never seen or tried cachous, I hear they're still sold in the UK and in Australia, so I totally believe you if you say that they taste bitter. I'm very familiar with Tic Tacs as breath freshener instead, I use them constantly, and a funny fact I've noticed is, I totally need Tic Tacs when living in the city, but when I'm by the ocean surfing, even without having brushed my teeth, for some reason my breath keeps staying totally fresh and pure, smelling like the ocean. Which proves that endorphins play a part in producing fresh breath!
I promise to re-read all the details about the murders and the witnesses in a few days, when I'll also start reading Sugden. But not before completing a French article due for publication, which should take at least 3 evenings.
As for the position Stride's body was found, as I've posted on another thread, her position in death illustrates only what happened shortly before her death, during the last part of the attack, NOT what happened initially during the attack. So I firmly believe that it's a complete exercice in futility to try to reconstruct what kind of actions took place or what kind of words were exchanged before the attack took place or at the initial stage of the attack. We can formulate several scenarios about what happened, but it will always stay pure conjecture. This even in the event that we luckily manage to identify the killer.
The email to the director of the Opéra Comique hasn't bounced back yet. If it doesn't bounce back for another 2 days, I'm good.

[lynn cates]

last actions

Hello Maria. I agree that we cannot properly reconstruct words; actions, however, are different. If you find someone dead with an egg in her hand, you may rest assured she took no death grip at the last.

Similarly, with the unspilled cachous in hand, there cannot have been much flailing the hands about or even defense. Only a clenching of hands and perhaps raising the arms.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

I don't know why such emphasis is being put on the flower and cachous. It is not like they represented a tremendous outpouring of cash. Only pennies. It is not uncommon (and I speak from experience) for people to buy themselves a little treat even when it is not wise to do so from a strictly economic experience.

You keep talking about the poor socialists but it is not like Liz was a $500 a night Vegas call girl. Surely they could have afforded her services. See above for a rationale.

I still don't understand why you place so much emphasis on the direction Liz's feet were facing. No matter what direction she was initially facing, she could have been spun around 180 degrees in the attack or when she was layed down. I don't see how we can therefore reach any conclusion.

c.d.

[mariab]

Hell Lynn,
I think that it's a fact that all Ripperologists agree that Stride got unconscious through strangulation. The ongoing debate only pertains to the details.
I think I'll take a few minutes off to work out now, instead of simply working.