A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
Hello Maria. Yes, my remarks were directed against their level of diction. My views on socialism/anarchism were not brought into the mix.
Yes, I noticed that (at second sight).
Incidentally, as a young lad, working as a dustman, I read "Kapital" and "The Communist Manifesto." I declared for Marx and Engels (no, not Groucho and Marty, the others). One day, however, I ran dead into reality and made peace with free market oeconomy. But none of that was germane to my comments about rhetoric.
But please, if you gentlemen start also throwing in a debate of the merits of a free market economy into the mix in this thread, the ogrewill grow even uglier! I'm retiring for the night , in the hope of managing to take a nap later on.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac.

The club felt under pressure from:

1. the police (rightly or wrongly)
2. Adler and Anglo-Jewry
3. factions among their own kind.

A cover up would have been an instinctive reaction.

Hello again Lynn.......

I agree....and so a cover up could well have been for the most innocent of reasons.

Out of curiosity.....are you saying the murderer was a club member? If not.....then how did he blend in with club members? And why did he come out of the club?

Cheers.

[lynn cates]

visitor

Hello Mac. Yes, innocent--as in survival instinct. Now I believe we are on the same wavelength vis-a-vis the Schwartz story.

I don't think that it was a club member who killed Liz but a club visitor. I obtained several materials from the IISG--including visitor lists for William Morris' Farringdon st Socialist club. many of the great English Socialists were members (eg, Eleanor Marx-Aveling; Frank Kitz, Victor Dave and Charles Lane); but, there were also many famous visitors (eg, Woolf Wess and his brother Morris). It would be natural (given a rather loose interpretation of "natural") for one of the police spies--like Kaufmann, who had been expelled from the continent to London--to have visited the club, thug in tow for such mayhem. If he were one of the Jews amongst whom Liz had been working whilst on Fashion st, so much the better.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Lynn,

We have speculated on a cover-up on this site in the past. People were torn between two ends of the spectrum: The cover-up of a murder, or just a control of information. This was for the reason you suggested, that they were afraid of being shut down. I don't doubt that the stories were straightened out a bit before anything was said to the police, but for reasons of brevity and clarity so as not to give themselves any undo attention. Murder is at the opposite end of the spectrum that I reside on.

Cheers,

Mike

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Michael. Yes, I am aware of that thread. Perhaps I should peruse it again.

I think we pretty well agree on the club's hierarchy and their approach to "information flow."

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD. First, permit me to thank you for starting this thread. True, it has undergone a metamorphosis that would have shocked even Kafka, but it has been an instant success. That said . . .

"Even if we assume for the sake of argument that Liz was in a bad place for soliciting, what is her reaction if the customer approached her? Is she going to turn down an easy chance to make money?"

I haven't the foggiest notion about this. Nor am I sure why she would be approached. Finally, I'm not sure how easy it would be. Sorry.

"I know that you don't like the idea of Liz deciding to make the best of a bad evening by deciding to solicit but what actually prevents her from doing so?"

Nothing, I suppose--unless she were wearing a chastity device. Again, however, this would be a move that would show ill timing and bad business sense, which seems, at first blush, opposed to the crafty business woman who invests in flowers, breath fresheners and seeks a lint brush.

"It seems to me like she had everything that she needed with her."

Possibly. Except perhaps the will. And, if your above points are correct, she lacked good timing and business sense.

Cheers.
LC

I don't think that it is unreasonable for someone to assume that a woman standing by herself late at night might be a prostitute especially when the woman apparently was known as a prostitute if only part time.

c.d.

[caz]

Exactly c.d.

Even if Stride was in no mood for a bit of "light whoring", how was your average prostitute user meant to know that, if he happened along Berner St while she was loitering by the club entrance all on her lonesome, for whatever reason?

I prefer simple to complex, and to use the murderer we have, rather than to invent a club-related one-off we have no reason to believe existed.

If the murder had happened by a pub entrance, would we now be suspecting a conspiratorial cover-up, involving the landlord/lady, the bar staff and the regulars in the snug?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Lynn,

I'm getting rather confused. Do you have in mind for the murderer someone who secretly wanted the club shut down, while the sincere members who feared the club would be shut down went into damage limitation mode by putting the unknown murderer's clock forward to 1am and calling on the acting services of Schwartz to get the charm wound up?

Isn't this all getting more complex by the day?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

What's wrong with the following scenario?

Stride goes out for the night and meets up with one or more men, flirting with them perhaps, having a laugh and enjoying being chatted up. She spends her sixpence over the course of the evening and doesn't actually make a penny, but we don't know if that was intentional or disappointing for her.

One of the men thought he was going to get her alone, just by flattery alone, and without too much effort. But she kept stalling, preferring to stay where there were other people about, safety in numbers and all that. She didn't want to wind up drunk or somewhere she had no control - you couldn't trust men at the moment, even the friendly ones or the familiar faces. If they didn't press cash on her up front, where help was still only a scream away, she wasn't going to leave with anyone for some quiet spot where she would be entirely vulnerable, especially after the pubs had closed.

So at the end of the night, when she was again alone and now penniless, because of her reluctance to go with the fellow who had tried the hardest - even bought her a flower to butter her up before he got a final "no" and gave up - she had to make her way somewhere, and the still active club struck her as the safest place to be, while considering her diminishing options.

In the meantime her unwanted admirer, who had expected something in return for working on her, went from optimistic Saturday night drinker to nasty Saturday night loser, whose earlier drinking had caught up with him and only blackened his mood. And then he finds the bloody woman by the club entrance (where she is merely seeking safety in numbers as before) and leaps to the conclusion that she was only too willing all along, but just not with him. The blood boils and he shoves her, but she cries out in surprise and there are witnesses, so he backs off and pretends to go on his way. She can do no more but hope that he's finally got the message and gone home. But this man is no ordinary Saturday nighter who dislikes rejection and pr*** teasers but forgets it all by the time his hangover kicks in. This man has a sharp knife and an unpredictable temper, and has already used the former on at least two occasions.

I don't need to 'believe' in Jack the Ripper when he's right there that very night, just half an hour after Stride was found, staring at us all from the blackness of Mitre Square, with a temper that's equally black and menacing.

Love,

Caz
X

[Simon Wood]

Hi Caz,

Wow! That is simple rather than complex?

Might I suggest you turn your not inconsiderable writing talents to bodice-ripping fiction.

Regards,

Simon

[mariab]

So, Caz, do you suscribe to 2 different killers running around in Whitechapel on Sept. 30?

[c.d.]

Hi Caz,

Certainly Liz standing by the club as a place of refuge is a distinct possibility and she might have interacted with with the BS man previously that night.

But your scenario has a couple of problems that I see. One, why didn't she scream much louder and appeal to Schwartz and the Pipe Man for help? Surely, in your scenario she has to realize she is in serious danger at that point.

Two, well its those damn cachous again. They would have to remain unbroken after being thrown to the ground and most likely dragged to where she was killed. Seems unlikely.

Plus it all seems so un-Jack like. Although I took a number of acting classes and whenever a student would say "I just don't think my character would do that", the teacher would go nuts and say "how the hell do you know what your character would or would not do?"

c.d.

[lynn cates]

reason

Hello CD.

"I don't think that it is unreasonable for someone to assume that a woman standing by herself late at night might be a prostitute especially when the woman apparently was known as a prostitute if only part time."

I hope that I have never used "unreasonable." In fact, I said that all 3 paradigms were rational.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

I don't understand this need for complex and highly improbable conspiracy theories. Anarchists, police spies, cover ups etc.- All you need is one serial killer.

And one in this case (stride murder)who botches.


I can definitely see how JtR might have blown his usual MO and lost his temper with a reluctant stride.

[lynn cates]

simplicity

Hello Caz.

"Do you have in mind for the murderer someone who secretly wanted the club shut down . . ."

Secretly? Don't think so. Do you recall the episode of sabotage (excuse me, 2 episodes) against the Arbeter Fraint in 1887?

" . . . while the sincere members who feared the club would be shut down went into damage limitation mode by putting the unknown murderer's clock forward to 1am . . ."

No, no. They needed a quick cover story. The few minutes (10?) made up the gap. ("When did you discover the body?" "12:40, sir." "'Ere now, and you waited almost till bleedin' one o'clock to go for us coppers?")

Caz, suppose that Ripperologists were considered crazy and you are a known one of them. Suppose further that you knew that you were being watched at times by the police. If a body shows up on your doorstep, would you not require a bit of reflection to decide what to do?

" . . .and calling on the acting services of Schwartz to get the charm wound up?"

Charm? No. They needed an actor to "see" someone who--whatever else he was--was no club member attacking Liz.

"Isn't this all getting more complex by the day?"

I think not. I see it as simplicity itself. But what did CS Lewis say about complexity vs simplicity?

Cheers.
LC