A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

How does Liz know in advance who is going to be a paying customer?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi Maria,

I'm sorry but are you asking me a question about what I saw? I guess you can envision any kind of scenario since we will never know.

c.d.

[mariab]

Hi C.D.,
I'm only asking what you think of the (improbable) possibility that what you saw happen in DC was similar to what might have happened between Stride and BS, that is, with Stride insistantly asking BS for money (as she habitually did, to all kinds of people), and he simply pushed her off to get rid of her? Not the most probable scenario, but, well... I've never before thought about this possibility...
I've just changed my easyjet ticket to Paris from next Friday to august 30, which gives me 4 additional days to finish the horrible workload I have pending before leaving. Ouf! I can breath again... And I only shed 30€ for the changed ticket.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Maria,

Michael Kidney and Mary Malcolm met before the inquest, possibly exchanging stories. Maybe it's how they agreed that Stride spoke Yiddish/Yeddish. But how would they have known? They were, after all, both drunken dimwits.

Elizabeth Stokes was a tragi-comedic heroine who should have had an opera based on her life story. Hubby No. 1 was exiled to America in ignominy, but later returned. Hubby No. 2 was shipwrecked in the Indian Ocean but thoughtlessly survived, and Hubby No. 3 was apparently too stupid to realise anything was amiss with his virgin bride.

There's a very interesting story wrapped up in the Berner Street murder, but unfortunately nobody's interested, preferring instead to believe she was a victim of Jack the Ripper.

Regards,

Simon

[mariab]

Hi Simon,
Is there evidence that Michael Kidney and Mary Malcolm met before the inquest? I'd have imagined Kidney to have been far too distressed, drunk, and busy being chauffeured by “private investigators“ and requesting for a “young, strange detective“ to find the time for exchanging stories with Mary Malcolm.
Yes, the mixup between the 2 “Long Lizzes“ and Elizabeth Stoke's tragi-comedic conjugal history sounds like an opera or like The comedy of errors. I had NO idea that her hubby No. 1 returned from America, and her hubby No. 2 survived the shipwreck in the Indian Ocean! So that's how she ended up a trigamist!
I don't know, the history of Nichols and Chapman is endlessly sad and poignant, but with Stride and Eddowes it gets all crazy and entertaining – clearly because they were younger. With Mary Kelly it gets back into romantic/gothic (Irish?) territory... It's like what the French called a mélange des genres in 3 Acts!

[Fisherman]

Lynn C:

"I pretty much agree with you about Marshall being a decent witness. I think face is MUCH more valuable than dress.
But, to be convinced, I'd need to put this chap through his paces. I have identified people by their faces, only later to discover my error (yes, they were very similar)."

Then you are harder to convince than I am. An adamant witness, stating positively that he recognizes both face AND clothing after having had ten minutes at his disposal to closely observe somebody, is more than enough for me. And yes, face is more valuable than dress, but when you combine the two, what you get is solid rock.

"Can't you even throw me a crumb of suggestion? Your forensic reconstruction is virtually the same as mine and so I'd like to see something that causes his anger to explode and which also dovetails with Schwartz's story--given you still accept that."

Lynn, I think that you could come up with as many suggestions yourself as I can in this department. Explanations to why a man that walked south towards Ellen Street later turns up from the north are not hard to construct - but they will all be guesswork. The same goes for explanations to why he would cut her neck. The only thing I will say about the latter, is that sudden rage would probably have been involved, since it was a quick, quiet deed, and since it seems to me that she was grabbed from behind while being on her way to exit the yard, having taken out her cachous. I would not want to expand on these things any more than that, given the meagre material at hand.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

busy schedules

Hello Maria. Yes, Casebook provides a nice diversion when a schedule is full to overflowing. That is why I'm here--too many classes to teach!

You might buy a copy of Evans and Skinner's Ultimate Companion. It makes life much easier.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

it's business

Hello CD.

"How does Liz know in advance who is going to be a paying customer?"

She doesn't, but there are certain populations which are quite obviously more fruitful than others. Liz would know this, GIVEN that she is the astute "business woman" that she is sometimes imagined to be.

So:

1. Hanging about near a main thoroughfare where many dock labourers are getting off work on pay day--good investment.

2. Hanging about a club on a back street where many impoverished sweaters and greeners are hanging on every work of a fuzzy headed, steel rimmed spectacle wearing anarchist discussing the virtues of Mikhail Bakunin--not such a good investment.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

convincing

Hello Fish. I haven't the slightest remonstrance to make regarding your forensic reconstruction of the sequence involved with Liz in the yard. As far as I am concerned, it is flawless.

I think you have indicated that Liz went into the yard with her clerk, read him the riot act, started to exit, paused for cachous. If this is your sequence, it is not bad, but we need a suggestion about an earth-shattering occurrence--one that would spark a knifing. There is also the gap involving precisely WHY 2 lovers are hanging around a club. Was he a member? Did he live in the area? If so, and he were remorseful afterwards, how did he avoid the search?

Yes, I am hard to convince. I require all t's crossed and all i's dotted in order for my intellect to be at rest. If I try to force it, the reservations prove eventually to undermine my faith.

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello CD.

"How does Liz know in advance who is going to be a paying customer?"

She doesn't, but there are certain populations which are quite obviously more fruitful than others. Liz would know this, GIVEN that she is the astute "business woman" that she is sometimes imagined to be.

So:

1. Hanging about near a main thoroughfare where many dock labourers are getting off work on pay day--good investment.

2. Hanging about a club on a back street where many impoverished sweaters and greeners are hanging on every work of a fuzzy headed, steel rimmed spectacle wearing anarchist discussing the virtues of Mikhail Bakunin--not such a good investment.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn....

Decent enough argument but it is conditional on the following.....

1) Stride was waiting for someone.....

2) Prostitutes only ever kept to the main roads in the East End. Now my understanding is prostitutes today do not keep strictly to main roads.....some do....some go for quiet corners and wait for punters to go to them....in the knowledge that the punters know where the quiet corners are and will be along at some point. Why would it have been any different then? Didn't prostitutes have to keep moving in those day......surely it must have been a pain in the arse for punters and prostitutes to be constantly on alert for the police and that quiet spot with just one policeman walking the beat every 25 minutes must have been attractive. I think it's fair to say that word of prostitutes working quieter areas would have spread like wildfire among seasoned punters.

Lynn.....on balance.....I think soliciting rather than waiting for a date or an employer or something us a better option.

Having said that......I think the best argument for an employer connection is not that Liz wouldn't have solicted in that area......but the amount of people milling about and no one sees Jack come out. If you believe Fanny Mortimer.... who as we know was supported by Goldstein coming forward....and she's two doors up on the doorstep from about 12.45-1....and she goes in just before the cart fella comes round the corner.....then how on earth does Jackie boy get out without being seen? or does he go into the club and blends in with club members?

[Fleetwood Mac]

There is also the gap involving precisely WHY 2 lovers are hanging around a club.

Yes.....the enraged lover idea flounders a bit when they part company and one member of this loving couple goes off to hang round a club......not exactly a commitment to the relationship.....loving or otherwise......and the enraged lover isn't so enraged in the first instance as he allows her to do so rather than take her home with him when he has the opportunity with or without her consent.

Instead he takes a wild stab in the dark that something's wrong and tracks her down to a club....what has happened in that half an hour to move from believing nothing is wrong (as he's happy to part company) to believing something is wrong....would need to be explained. What happens? He's half way home and he thinks **** shouldn't have let her go....I know what she's like.....she'll be hanging around on the streets. Now if this was a concern for him....which the idea of an enraged lover suggests......then this would have been in his mind at 12pm and surely he would have dragged her to his home or walked her to her home.

Just me....but I haven't heard a better argument than the soliciting one......yet.

[lynn cates]

this/that

Hello Mac.

"some go for quiet corners and wait for punters to go to them....in the knowledge that the punters know where the quiet corners are and will be along at some point. Why would it have been any different then?"

Sounds good and likely true of both Polly and Annie. There are very few doubts attached to their motivations just before they died.

"that quiet spot with just one policeman walking the beat every 25 minutes must have been attractive. I think it's fair to say that word of prostitutes working quieter areas would have spread like wildfire among seasoned punters."

But how would Liz know all this? Did she spend her days reconnoitering? And if so, did it work? Where were all her customers?

"Lynn.....on balance.....I think soliciting rather than waiting for a date or an employer or something [i]s a better option."

Your option to believe. As an adult, I would not even prod here because, until one is convinced otherwise, prodding is surely invasive. To be genuinely convinced of something, one must FEEL it.

"Having said that......I think the best argument for an employer connection is not that Liz wouldn't have solicted in that area......but the amount of people milling about and no one sees Jack come out. If you believe Fanny Mortimer.... who as we know was supported by Goldstein coming forward....and she's two doors up on the doorstep from about 12.45-1....and she goes in just before the cart fella comes round the corner.....then how on earth does Jackie boy get out without being seen? or does he go into the club and blends in with club members?"

I believe the assailant entered the yard from the side door, killed Liz, and reentered the club--later to leave through the main street door.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

lovers

Hello Mac. Your concerns about the loving couple are well taken. I suppose the following possible:

They have a spat and part company. He leaves; she hangs about the club. (I cannot intellectually bring myself to assent to the "Fine. Let's turn a trick" scenario. But, if you like . . .) Given that clerk = BS man, he gets tipsy, comes back seeking Liz, spots her, drags her into the yard, they quarrel, he knifes, etc.

This may be less implausible than other scenarios, but whence the alcohol to get tipsy?

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac.

But how would Liz know all this? Did she spend her days reconnoitering? And if so, did it work? Where were all her customers?

Hi Lynn.....

I think it is a given that she would have known and punters would have known. Just a spot of knowledge sharing as prostitutes and punters do. My understanding is that modern day prostitutes don't put an advertisement in the local shop window.....yet punters manage to find them in quiet spots.....for exactly the same reasons.....punters and prostitutes know their territory and the risks they're taking and think a like in terms of what constitutes a safeish spot....and it follows gravitate to certain areas out of the way of prying eyes.

I believe the assailant entered the yard from the side door, killed Liz, and reentered the club--later to leave through the main street door.

Certainly a possibility. I think it's a better idea than the 'enraged lover' theory. Why would someone from the club want her dead?

[lynn cates]

Hello Mac.

"Why would someone from the club want her dead?"

And thereby hangs a tale--or, perhaps, I am about to be hanged by the tail!

A few points.

#1 When this notion first struck me, I rejected it for roughly your reasons. If Liz is meeting someone at the door and they are going somewhere (his place?) why suddenly kill her?

#2 The anarchists were, by and large, not violent--in spite of their cornball rhetoric.

So, now what? Well, I happened to read chapter 16 of Evans and Skinner's Ultimate Companion. A chap from Austria, claiming to be a socialist, talked in terms of one who wished to get the club closed down. (His name? Stammer--alias John Kelly.)

Now, indeed, this informant had already been discredited by the Austrian police and later by SY. But was his story made up of whole cloth? Did it contain a fundamentum in re?

I then began to read that the Socialists themselves claimed they were beset by police spies and agents provocateurs. (See my Kaufmann thread.)

What better way to get the club closed down than to have the police suspect them of harbouring a murderer?

Cheers.
LC