Lipski

[Abby Normal]

Yes it's Chapman.

The book is called Aristotle's Works. He had only a few books in his collection. It was banned.

Contains content like this...

http://www.barterbooks.co.uk/catalog/images/books/g4847b.jpg

http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/4/3...18879887_o.jpg

interesting-Chapman-who also probably had some level of surgical skill.

[Abby Normal]

Pot, kettle.

I never said the Torso killer murdered "all over town", I said that unlike the Ripper murders he didn't confine his murders to Whitechapel. That's not the same thing now, is it?

Hi Harry
We don't know where torso man lived, picked up his victims, nor do we know where his bolt hole was. all we know is where he dumped them.

For all we know he may have lived in the west end, picked them up in the west end and killed them in the west end.

For all we know he may have lived in the east end, picked them up in the East End and killed them in the East end.

The parts were all over, that's all we know.

one thing we can say is that the pinchin street torso was found in the East End-and compared to the other torso cases, seems to be the one that was dumped more hastily than the others-maybe suggesting that this one he had to get rid of in a hurry. Thereby implying that he lived (and/or had his murder bolt hole) nearest to this dump site-in the east end. It was also the last victim of torso killer, so that may have something to do with it being hastily dumped.

[Batman]

Chapman?

Yes it's Chapman.

The book is called Aristotle's Works. He had only a few books in his collection. It was banned.

Contains content like this...

http://www.barterbooks.co.uk/catalog/images/books/g4847b.jpg

http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/4/3/9/0/1/webimg/818879887_o.jpg

[Fisherman]

Pot, kettle.

I never said the Torso killer murdered "all over town", I said that unlike the Ripper murders he didn't confine his murders to Whitechapel. That's not the same thing now, is it?

You were (erroneously) going by the dumping sites, which were all over town, so no, there is no case of pot and kettle. You were the only one lying. It´s discussion over on that point for me, so if you want to go on waffling about it, do feel free. That does not include misrepresenting, though.

[Harry D]

Could you be for real and stop putting words in my mouth, Harry? It is a pathetic lie that I would have "asserted" that the bolthole was "situated in Whitechapel or nearby". I said it MAY have been the case that the bolthole was there, and I said this on account of how you earlier wrongfully claimed that the torso killer killed all over town, something that we cannot possibly know. All that can be said is that it is much likelier that all his victims were killed in one and the same spot - wherever that was.
It is exactly this kind of thing that makes me dislike so much out here. Do not misrepresent me, PLEASE!!

Pot, kettle.

I never said the Torso killer murdered "all over town", I said that unlike the Ripper murders he didn't confine his murders to Whitechapel. That's not the same thing now, is it?

[Fisherman]

Wasn't Elizabeth Jackson last known to be living in the Chelsea area? And weren't most of her body parts dumped in that vicinity? That would not support your assertion that the bolthole was situated in Whitechapel or nearby.

Could you be for real and stop putting words in my mouth, Harry? It is a pathetic lie that I would have "asserted" that the bolthole was "situated in Whitechapel or nearby". I said it MAY have been the case that the bolthole was there, and I said this on account of how you earlier wrongfully claimed that the torso killer killed all over town, something that we cannot possibly know. All that can be said is that it is much likelier that all his victims were killed in one and the same spot - wherever that was.
It is exactly this kind of thing that makes me dislike so much out here. Do not misrepresent me, PLEASE!!

Jackson was born in Chelsea and known to frequent the Battersea area. That does not preclude that she may have spent time elsewhere, I´m afraid. To decide where the body parts were dumped in the Thames was never going to be an easy thing, but the body was transported to Battersea mortuary on account of parts being found in the river nearby.

At the end of the day, where she was picked up by the killer, where she was killed and exactly where the parts were dumped is written in the stars.

[Harry D]

Once more, that "leaking" had only to do with the dumping. Our best guess is that the torso killer utilized one bolthole only for his craft, and that may well have been situated in Whitechapel, there is just no knowing. There is also the chance that the killer picked up all his victims in Whitechapel, but had a bolthole elsewhere. No matter what applies, dubbing the torso killer a West End murderer as so many people do, is just not verifiable.

Wasn't Elizabeth Jackson last known to be living in the Chelsea area? And weren't most of her body parts dumped in that vicinity? That would not support your assertion that the bolthole was situated in Whitechapel or nearby.

[Fisherman]

Well we are talking potentially of a period of 16 years within a city with a population in the millions. William Bury lived in the East End during the Fall of 1888 and he was a Ripper-esque killer. And it's worth noting that only one of the Torsos leaked into Ripper territory.

Once more, that "leaking" had only to do with the dumping. Our best guess is that the torso killer utilized one bolthole only for his craft, and that may well have been situated in Whitechapel, there is just no knowing. There is also the chance that the killer picked up all his victims in Whitechapel, but had a bolthole elsewhere. No matter what applies, dubbing the torso killer a West End murderer as so many people do, is just not verifiable.

[Joshua Rogan]

hey Bat
I would have thought either one of them would be most likely to have that kind of book. then I remembered-Tumblety. its gotta be him right?

Chapman?

[Abby Normal]

Neither I'm afraid.

hey Bat
I would have thought either one of them would be most likely to have that kind of book. then I remembered-Tumblety. its gotta be him right?

[Harry D]

As always I am amazed at this line of thinking. So are we to assume that in the Fall of 1888 there were uterus takers, kidney takers, face cutters, abdominal flap takers and let's not forget a brass ring taker (Annie's killer) all strolling the streets of Whitechapel at the same time and all focusing on different goals? Man, you probably had to elbow your way down the street with all of those people out and about.

c.d.

Well we are talking potentially of a period of 16 years within a city with a population in the millions. William Bury lived in the East End during the Fall of 1888 and he was a Ripper-esque killer. And it's worth noting that only one of the Torsos leaked into Ripper territory.

[Batman]

francis Thompson? sickert?

Neither I'm afraid.

[c.d.]

As always I am amazed at this line of thinking. So are we to assume that in the Fall of 1888 there were uterus takers, kidney takers, face cutters, abdominal flap takers and let's not forget a brass ring taker (Annie's killer) all strolling the streets of Whitechapel at the same time and all focusing on different goals? Man, you probably had to elbow your way down the street with all of those people out and about.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Fish,

I agree with you in that I don't think there was any hatred or any personal animosity directed toward Kelly. I simply think it was the previous murders with the addition of more time. If you want to assign personal hatred to Kelly's death then you would almost have to do the same with respect to Kate. She was badly mutilated and her face was deeply cut.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Michael W Richards: I can answer why the abdomen flaps were taken from Annie, ...so he could excise the abdominal organs he wanted to take. Can you say the same about Mary...considering her uterus was left under her head?

I would not say that of either victim. Any organ can be excised with no need for abdominal wall removal. Ergo, the reason for it was another one.

The WHY things are done is, I agree, critical,.. those who espouse that all these murders were linked because the likely motives, or the WHY, was the same, obviously have not studied the crimes in depth.

I believe the murders are linked. And I HAVE studied the crimes in depth. And that does not make me an anomaly...

Polly was killed so she could have her abdomen/pelvis mutilated.

But the key to understanding the case is the question WHY the killer had that probable aim.

Annie was killed so she could have her abdomen/pelvis mutilated and her uterus taken away.

Same thing here.

Why was Liz killed?

I assume for the same reason - but the killer was interrupted.

Why was Kate killed? Why was Mary killed?

For the same reason as the others, the torso victims included.

Clearly the objectives of the killer(s) of those women, wasn't specifically to mutilate the abdomen/pelvis area and excise abdominal organs to take away.

Nor does it have to be to work with my assumption, Michael.

Nothing was taken from Liz, nothing was attempted to be taken,...

That may owe to the killer being interrupted, as you know.

Kate kidney and partial bladder left the crime scene, and Marys heart left hers.

And that nullifies the idea that the killer was after the reproductive organs. Which offers a key to understanding what it was about - and what it was NOT about.

The many superfluous wounds that Kate and Mary endured after death show us that their killer(s) took extra time to cut faces, arms, legs and colons without clear objectives, the first "abdominal flap" thief targeted the uterus.

Mary also lost her uterus, Michael - it was part of the makeshift pillow under her head. And I think there was a clear objective in what he did.