Lipski

[Fisherman]

point taken, fisherman. What-gets-me is how capable each killer would have been performing the other's type of crimes. The Torso Killer should have been able to perform Jack the Ripper's crimes, and vice versa... which, along with dane's post, makes me wonder the statistical probability of having two serial murderers in the same locale who know how to dissect and eviscerate a woman. It's NOT as though we're comparing one man who shot his victims to death, and another killer who assaults and eviscerates.

Very true - we are comparing two eviscerators who were both very skilled with the knife, who both preyed on prostitutes and who both came up with the idea to lay the abdomen of victims open by cutting away the abdominal wall in large flaps, who both took rings from the fingers of their victims, who both took out the colon or sections of it from victims, who cut out the uterus from victims, who cut their victims from sternum to pubes...

It just doesnīt happen. It is the same man, and that should have been recognized ages ago.

[Batman]

Batman: There is obviously hatred in the complete defeminization of Kelly including hacking her face to shreds.

I can see how your logic works, but I beg to disagree. I donīt think there was any hatred at all involved in what he did. He may not have valued Kelly as a person, but that may well have been secondary.

So why is stuff placed neatly about the place?

With Kelly he had more time... and it's nothing new.

He placed Eddowes intestine strip neatly beside her with other items. A few items seemed to be placed about neatly with Chapman. This is part of his behavior and maybe resembles something of his work in life.

But is it hatred? To my mind, that is not how hatred looks at all. It is a ritualistic behavour more than anything else, and rituals are not matters of hate.

I think one needs not go deeper than he was harvesting sexual organs from these encounters and what else he did to them blood lust. Why wasn't it surgically precise? It was dark and he was a ripper.

Yes, we should go deeper. It is NOT "only" about harvesting sexual organs.

Having said that I see some evidence on Mary Kelly that there may been amputation attempts on her right leg, or else it's a stocking part, but it looks like a circular incision too. This isn't in any autopsy. Having said that, Bond said she was naked. She clearly is not.

That dark line around the lower leg? It is fascinating. I have never been able to make sense of it, but I feel it may tell a story worth listening to. She was not naked, no. She wore what looks like a thin nightgown, the same kind of garment found with the Pinchin Street torso.
And no, it is not an autopsy. Not at all.

Anyhow that aside I think the sexual organ harvesting explanation as a subset of the torso murders for replacement parts gives reason to the whole thing and that's what I like about it. It makes sense and puts a lot of stuff together in one go.

Then pursue the idea! Me, Iīve got a better one...

I did. It lead me to read a book from a very small selection belonging to a popular suspect and in that book are illustrations of torsos, sectioned, biological/surgical illustrations, very primitive, but also involving women, wombs and viscera. It was a banned book at the time.

[Michael W Richards]

I am very mainstream here, Michael - to me, there is no doubt that we are dealing with the same killer. To me, it is not so much that he cut the abdomen away in flaps, as a question of WHY he did it, what it symbolizes. Once we get a hang of that, we can see a common trait that binds the Ripper deeds and the torso deeds very clearly together.

I can answer why the abdomen flaps were taken from Annie, ...so he could excise the abdominal organs he wanted to take. Can you say the same about Mary...considering her uterus was left under her head?

The WHY things are done is, I agree, critical,.. those who espouse that all these murders were linked because the likely motives, or the WHY, was the same, obviously have not studied the crimes in depth.

Polly was killed so she could have her abdomen/pelvis mutilated. Annie was killed so she could have her abdomen/pelvis mutilated and her uterus taken away. Why was Liz killed? Why was Kate killed? Why was Mary killed? Clearly the objectives of the killer(s) of those women, wasn't specifically to mutilate the abdomen/pelvis area and excise abdominal organs to take away. Nothing was taken from Liz, nothing was attempted to be taken,...Kate kidney and partial bladder left the crime scene, and Marys heart left hers. The many superfluous wounds that Kate and Mary endured after death show us that their killer(s) took extra time to cut faces, arms, legs and colons without clear objectives, the first "abdominal flap" thief targeted the uterus.

[Fisherman]

I did. It lead me to read a book from a very small selection belonging to a popular suspect and in that book are illustrations of torsos, sectioned, biological/surgical illustrations, very primitive, but also involving women, wombs and viscera. It was a banned book at the time.

Now youīre talking! But not nailing.

[Abby Normal]

I did. It lead me to read a book from a very small selection belonging to a popular suspect and in that book are illustrations of torsos, sectioned, biological/surgical illustrations, very primitive, but also involving women, wombs and viscera. It was a banned book at the time.

francis Thompson? sickert?

[Fisherman]

Michael W Richards: I can answer why the abdomen flaps were taken from Annie, ...so he could excise the abdominal organs he wanted to take. Can you say the same about Mary...considering her uterus was left under her head?

I would not say that of either victim. Any organ can be excised with no need for abdominal wall removal. Ergo, the reason for it was another one.

The WHY things are done is, I agree, critical,.. those who espouse that all these murders were linked because the likely motives, or the WHY, was the same, obviously have not studied the crimes in depth.

I believe the murders are linked. And I HAVE studied the crimes in depth. And that does not make me an anomaly...

Polly was killed so she could have her abdomen/pelvis mutilated.

But the key to understanding the case is the question WHY the killer had that probable aim.

Annie was killed so she could have her abdomen/pelvis mutilated and her uterus taken away.

Same thing here.

Why was Liz killed?

I assume for the same reason - but the killer was interrupted.

Why was Kate killed? Why was Mary killed?

For the same reason as the others, the torso victims included.

Clearly the objectives of the killer(s) of those women, wasn't specifically to mutilate the abdomen/pelvis area and excise abdominal organs to take away.

Nor does it have to be to work with my assumption, Michael.

Nothing was taken from Liz, nothing was attempted to be taken,...

That may owe to the killer being interrupted, as you know.

Kate kidney and partial bladder left the crime scene, and Marys heart left hers.

And that nullifies the idea that the killer was after the reproductive organs. Which offers a key to understanding what it was about - and what it was NOT about.

The many superfluous wounds that Kate and Mary endured after death show us that their killer(s) took extra time to cut faces, arms, legs and colons without clear objectives, the first "abdominal flap" thief targeted the uterus.

Mary also lost her uterus, Michael - it was part of the makeshift pillow under her head. And I think there was a clear objective in what he did.

[c.d.]

Hello Fish,

I agree with you in that I don't think there was any hatred or any personal animosity directed toward Kelly. I simply think it was the previous murders with the addition of more time. If you want to assign personal hatred to Kelly's death then you would almost have to do the same with respect to Kate. She was badly mutilated and her face was deeply cut.

c.d.

[c.d.]

As always I am amazed at this line of thinking. So are we to assume that in the Fall of 1888 there were uterus takers, kidney takers, face cutters, abdominal flap takers and let's not forget a brass ring taker (Annie's killer) all strolling the streets of Whitechapel at the same time and all focusing on different goals? Man, you probably had to elbow your way down the street with all of those people out and about.

c.d.

[Batman]

francis Thompson? sickert?

Neither I'm afraid.

[Harry D]

As always I am amazed at this line of thinking. So are we to assume that in the Fall of 1888 there were uterus takers, kidney takers, face cutters, abdominal flap takers and let's not forget a brass ring taker (Annie's killer) all strolling the streets of Whitechapel at the same time and all focusing on different goals? Man, you probably had to elbow your way down the street with all of those people out and about.

c.d.

Well we are talking potentially of a period of 16 years within a city with a population in the millions. William Bury lived in the East End during the Fall of 1888 and he was a Ripper-esque killer. And it's worth noting that only one of the Torsos leaked into Ripper territory.

[Abby Normal]

Neither I'm afraid.

hey Bat
I would have thought either one of them would be most likely to have that kind of book. then I remembered-Tumblety. its gotta be him right?

[Joshua Rogan]

hey Bat
I would have thought either one of them would be most likely to have that kind of book. then I remembered-Tumblety. its gotta be him right?

Chapman?

[Fisherman]

Well we are talking potentially of a period of 16 years within a city with a population in the millions. William Bury lived in the East End during the Fall of 1888 and he was a Ripper-esque killer. And it's worth noting that only one of the Torsos leaked into Ripper territory.

Once more, that "leaking" had only to do with the dumping. Our best guess is that the torso killer utilized one bolthole only for his craft, and that may well have been situated in Whitechapel, there is just no knowing. There is also the chance that the killer picked up all his victims in Whitechapel, but had a bolthole elsewhere. No matter what applies, dubbing the torso killer a West End murderer as so many people do, is just not verifiable.

[Harry D]

Once more, that "leaking" had only to do with the dumping. Our best guess is that the torso killer utilized one bolthole only for his craft, and that may well have been situated in Whitechapel, there is just no knowing. There is also the chance that the killer picked up all his victims in Whitechapel, but had a bolthole elsewhere. No matter what applies, dubbing the torso killer a West End murderer as so many people do, is just not verifiable.

Wasn't Elizabeth Jackson last known to be living in the Chelsea area? And weren't most of her body parts dumped in that vicinity? That would not support your assertion that the bolthole was situated in Whitechapel or nearby.

[Fisherman]

Wasn't Elizabeth Jackson last known to be living in the Chelsea area? And weren't most of her body parts dumped in that vicinity? That would not support your assertion that the bolthole was situated in Whitechapel or nearby.

Could you be for real and stop putting words in my mouth, Harry? It is a pathetic lie that I would have "asserted" that the bolthole was "situated in Whitechapel or nearby". I said it MAY have been the case that the bolthole was there, and I said this on account of how you earlier wrongfully claimed that the torso killer killed all over town, something that we cannot possibly know. All that can be said is that it is much likelier that all his victims were killed in one and the same spot - wherever that was.
It is exactly this kind of thing that makes me dislike so much out here. Do not misrepresent me, PLEASE!!

Jackson was born in Chelsea and known to frequent the Battersea area. That does not preclude that she may have spent time elsewhere, Iīm afraid. To decide where the body parts were dumped in the Thames was never going to be an easy thing, but the body was transported to Battersea mortuary on account of parts being found in the river nearby.

At the end of the day, where she was picked up by the killer, where she was killed and exactly where the parts were dumped is written in the stars.