Lipski

[Abby Normal]

Well said Abby. Just to tack on one point that I see people gloss over but is one of the strongest for me personally in tying the torsos to the Ripper Murders:

To say that the Ripper and the Torso Killer are two different people is to inturn infer that there were two serial killers operating in roughly the same area, at roughly the same time who both practiced vaginal mutilations. When I weigh the odds of which would be rarer, I have to imagine the odds become near infinitesimal that it were two separate individuals partaking in such behavior around the same time, around the same area.

Even if we expanded the radius to include all of London or even all of England the number of killers who partake in vaginal mutilations is so minuscule that two being active at the same time would be absolutely unheard of. Once you include the years active and the general location it pushes the odds to nearly impossible.

Atleast, that is my opinion.

Hi Dane
Thanks.
Yes before I ever seriously considered that torso man and the ripper could be the same that very question nagged at the back of my mind. When I learned from Debra that ALL the torso victims had post mortem mutilation and removal of internal body parts and that the victims more than likely were unfortunates then I started to seriously consider it. With subsequent research and input from debs and fish I now lean toward they were the same man.

If they had totally different methods, or it was different victimology or vastly different time periods or locations I would dismiss as coincidence, but to think as you say that there was two serial killers operating under these similarities, and at such an early time in serial killer history, it's more than likely in my opinion the same man.

[Abby Normal]

sure this is off topic from whatever this threads been about in recent days but saw your post. for now, i can only say it would be convenient to tie the torso killer to the ripper, but woo boy! would it ever make one helluva story. still the arguments are good for both sides but i lean towards ,yes,.

we dont rightly know what state of mind the ripper was in. reading through the disorganization/organization, it seems the common concept is to keep him static, robotic with, the exception being, fisherman,s assertion that the killer could move between both identities. it made me wonder how... and a quick resolution could be that the ripper was his drunken persona. maybe the torso killer goes out on these holidays, gets blitzed on pots of ale or smokes some cheeba or what-have-you, and what results is a lusty murderer whose methodical nature is broken from for the moment, albeit maintaining some semblance of his craft; and, finishing the night off with a cup of coffee to bring him round. Speculation, true, but consideration that his ambitions may not have occurred A-B-C style.

Hi devil
Another interesting observation quickly following on from Batmans!
IMHO that's entirely plausible scenario and or the ripper murders happened when he couldn't bring them to his home and the torso murders are when he could.

[Abby Normal]

If you are looking for a possible relationship between the Torso murders and JtR then a hypothesis I would look to work with is that JtR was harvesting sexual body parts freshly to replace those parts on the torsos he was using to act out his fantasy.

Body parts were dumped in a relative of Mary Shelly's garden for example.

Which would be behavior more in the direction of Ed Gein. Therefore the canonical five are merely quick fixes for his real home projects.

Who knows though? JtR was obviously a disturbed individual.

Interesting batman
I've often wondered if they were the same man if he was collecting parts to create a "Frankenstein monster". At the very least I think he liked to collect female body parts both internal and external.

[Robert St Devil]

hello abby

sure this is off topic from whatever this threads been about in recent days but saw your post. for now, i can only say it would be convenient to tie the torso killer to the ripper, but woo boy! would it ever make one helluva story. still the arguments are good for both sides but i lean towards ,yes,.

we dont rightly know what state of mind the ripper was in. reading through the disorganization/organization, it seems the common concept is to keep him static, robotic with, the exception being, fisherman,s assertion that the killer could move between both identities. it made me wonder how... and a quick resolution could be that the ripper was his drunken persona. maybe the torso killer goes out on these holidays, gets blitzed on pots of ale or smokes some cheeba or what-have-you, and what results is a lusty murderer whose methodical nature is broken from for the moment, albeit maintaining some semblance of his craft; and, finishing the night off with a cup of coffee to bring him round. Speculation, true, but consideration that his ambitions may not have occurred A-B-C style.

[Dane_F]

And yet we have Jane Beadmore's killer in Sept 1888, John Gill's murderer in Dec 1888, and William Bury in 1889, all of whom indulged in some degree of mutilation or dismemberment, one of them even lived in the East End during the autumn of terror. Correlation does not imply causation.

Not mutilation. Vaginal mutilation. Very specifically vaginal mutilation.

[Batman]

If you are looking for a possible relationship between the Torso murders and JtR then a hypothesis I would look to work with is that JtR was harvesting sexual body parts freshly to replace those parts on the torsos he was using to act out his fantasy.

Body parts were dumped in a relative of Mary Shelly's garden for example.

Which would be behavior more in the direction of Ed Gein. Therefore the canonical five are merely quick fixes for his real home projects.

Who knows though? JtR was obviously a disturbed individual.

[Abby Normal]

And yet we have Jane Beadmore's killer in Sept 1888, John Gill's murderer in Dec 1888, and William Bury in 1889, all of whom indulged in some degree of mutilation or dismemberment, one of them even lived in the East End during the autumn of terror. Correlation does not imply causation.

Who killed Jane Beadmore and johnny Gill?

[Harry D]

Well said Abby. Just to tack on one point that I see people gloss over but is one of the strongest for me personally in tying the torsos to the Ripper Murders:

To say that the Ripper and the Torso Killer are two different people is to inturn infer that there were two serial killers operating in roughly the same area, at roughly the same time who both practiced vaginal mutilations. When I weigh the odds of which would be rarer, I have to imagine the odds become near infinitesimal that it were two separate individuals partaking in such behavior around the same time, around the same area.

Even if we expanded the radius to include all of London or even all of England the number of killers who partake in vaginal mutilations is so minuscule that two being active at the same time would be absolutely unheard of. Once you include the years active and the general location it pushes the odds to nearly impossible.

Atleast, that is my opinion.

And yet we have Jane Beadmore's killer in Sept 1888, John Gill's murderer in Dec 1888, and William Bury in 1889, all of whom indulged in some degree of mutilation or dismemberment, one of them even lived in the East End during the autumn of terror. Correlation does not imply causation.

[Dane_F]

Ted Bundy also flip flopped from organized to disorganized. he started out more disorganized, evolved into his organized state-with complicated ruses and then changed back in the end to disorganized.

If he was never caught for the Florida sorority attacks, then they probably would never have connected those to him as it was so totally disorganized and unlike his mature method.

serial killers MO change due to different circumstances and can evolve as they learn how to accomplish what they want more effectively. and can also devolve due to circumstances including the killers mental state and "desperation".

Their sig can evolve also as there fantasy progresses and the violence escalates. and yes I know sig dosnt change as much as MO can.

Their also can be overlap between MO and sig which can confuse things.

Bottom line you have to look at the BIG PICTURE and try to determine if there are enough similarities between what, at first blush, might appear to be differences, to consider if they are related.

IMHO there definitely are between torso man and the ripper to strongly consider they are the same person. and IMHO both were highly sophisticated and organized killers who took great care to accomplish what they wanted-primarily post mortem mutilation and deconstruction of the female body without being apprehended, with a secondary desire to purposely shock the public.


And getting back to the original point of this thread-no disorganized killer could have pulled off the double event, let alone the c-5. Yeah the ripper was lucky-but he knew what he was doing and made his own luck.

Well said Abby. Just to tack on one point that I see people gloss over but is one of the strongest for me personally in tying the torsos to the Ripper Murders:

To say that the Ripper and the Torso Killer are two different people is to inturn infer that there were two serial killers operating in roughly the same area, at roughly the same time who both practiced vaginal mutilations. When I weigh the odds of which would be rarer, I have to imagine the odds become near infinitesimal that it were two separate individuals partaking in such behavior around the same time, around the same area.

Even if we expanded the radius to include all of London or even all of England the number of killers who partake in vaginal mutilations is so minuscule that two being active at the same time would be absolutely unheard of. Once you include the years active and the general location it pushes the odds to nearly impossible.

Atleast, that is my opinion.

[Harry D]

The torso killer had a need to transport his victims from his bolthole, the Ripper didnīt.

But according to you he was arrogant enough to tough it out on the streets. Why the need for a bolthole in the first place?

The Ripper did kill in private too, and many serialists have killed in- and outdoors.

Can you name one serial killer who dismembered one series of victims in private whilst mutilating others on the street, in a matter of weeks?

Destroying is a conscious act, and it may well be that the Torso killer simply threw the heads in the Thames with the rest - and the heads, being heavier, sunk. No conscious destruction, therefore. The destruction of Kellys face is much more of a proven destruction of an identity, by the way.

And yet he deliberately left the torsos to be found, not the heads.

You have absolutely no idea where the Torso man killed his victims - and the Ripper did not confine his victims to Whitechapel. Stride was killed in St Georges in the East, for example, and Eddowes in the City.

I don't know where the Torso did his killing but his dump sites stretched across London, whereas the Ripper never ventured outside the comfort of Whitechapel or its outskirts despite other corners of London crawling with prostitutes. Why was the Pinchin Torso the only Torso victim that overlapped with the Ripper's territory?

The Ripper was also attributed anatomical skill, by more than one medico.

Not in the case of Kelly, the only victim killed on similar grounds to the Torso series and he made a right meal of it.

You have no idea about that either. The Torso murders spanned at least sixteen years, going by the signs on the bodies, and the Ripper murders may involve MacKenzie, for example. We cannot simply buy what MacNaghten told us about the C5 - he was guessing, as are we.

And you have no idea that the Torso murders spanned that long, either. For argument's sake, if the murders did span that long, and given the cooling off periods between each murder, that would suggest an organized killer with a degree of self-control, in contrast to the Ripper who struck with alarming regularity over a short period of time in high-risk locations.

Wow, Harry - that didnīt work out very well, did it?

Yeah but no one's judging you, Fish.

[Fisherman]

there is no evidence linking Mary Kellys death with any other so called Canonical.

There is, Iīm afraid - both Chapman and Kelly had their abdominal walls cut away and removed in a small number of flaps. That is as clear a link as we can ever hope for.

Off to bed now, goodnight!

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Harry

[QUOTE=Harry D;410876]
The Torso killer dismembered his victims, the Ripper didn't.
That's accurate.

The Torso killer decapitated his victims, the Ripper didn't.

Some contemporary opinion says that the killer of Annie and Polly was attempting to decapitate

The Torso killer killed his victims in private, the Ripper mainly didn't.

Id drop the "mainly",there is no evidence linking Mary Kellys death with any other so called Canonical.

The Torso killer destroyed his victim's identities, the Ripper didn't.

It could be argued that Marys killer tried to erase her identity.

The Ripper confined his murders to Whitechapel, the Torso killer didn't.

These murders require more than just geological parameters and historical timing to be linked together..though god knows thats all that puts a Liz Stride in the group.

The Torso killer was attributed anatomical skill, but the one victim the Ripper killed in private was a hatchet job.

Why I would say "mainly" killed outdoors...more like exclusively.

The Torso Murders spanned two years, the Ripper murders spanned twelve weeks.

Some claim that the Ripper was still active long after 1888.

[Michael W Richards]

Of course you totally ignore the obvious anomalies. Thus, you believe you've uncovered the first serial killer in history who alternated between two ritualistic behaviours; who alternated between being organized and disorganized; who alternated between being a commuter and a marauder; whose psychology kept changing,. I.e. from a killer who clearly enjoyed spending time with his victims-the Whitehall victim's body may well have been stored for 2 months- to a killer who just left women in the street.

You sound like me when I discuss the root concept of this Canonical Five. Obvious anomalies.

[Fisherman]

Harry D: The Torso killer dismembered his victims, the Ripper didn't.

The torso killer had a need to transport his victims from his bolthole, the Ripper didnīt.

The Torso killer decapitated his victims, the Ripper didn't.

The Torso killer had a need to transport his victims from his bolthole, the Ripper didnīt.

The Torso killer killed his victims in private, the Ripper mainly didn't.

The Ripper did kill in private too, and many serialists have killed in- and outdoors.

The Torso killer destroyed his victim's identities, the Ripper didn't.

Destroying is a conscious act, and it may well be that the Torso killer simply threw the heads in the Thames with the rest - and the heads, being heavier, sunk. No conscious destruction, therefore. The destruction of Kellys face is much more of a proven destruction of an identity, by the way.

The Ripper confined his murders to Whitechapel, the Torso killer didn't.

You have absolutely no idea where the Torso man killed his victims - and the Ripper did not confine his victims to Whitechapel. Stride was killed in St Georges in the East, for example, and Eddowes in the City.

The Torso killer was attributed anatomical skill, but the one victim the Ripper killed in private was a hatchet job.

The Ripper was also attributed anatomical skill, by more than one medico.

The Torso Murders spanned two years, the Ripper murders spanned twelve weeks.

You have no idea about that either. The Torso murders spanned at least sixteen years, going by the signs on the bodies, and the Ripper murders may involve MacKenzie, for example. We cannot simply buy what MacNaghten told us about the C5 - he was guessing, as are we.

Wow, Harry - that didnīt work out very well, did it?

[Harry D]

The Torso killer dismembered his victims, the Ripper didn't.

The Torso killer decapitated his victims, the Ripper didn't.

The Torso killer killed his victims in private, the Ripper mainly didn't.

The Torso killer destroyed his victim's identities, the Ripper didn't.

The Ripper confined his murders to Whitechapel, the Torso killer didn't.

The Torso killer was attributed anatomical skill, but the one victim the Ripper killed in private was a hatchet job.

The Torso Murders spanned two years, the Ripper murders spanned twelve weeks.