Lipski

[John G]

But he can't succeed every time - no serial killer has managed that, not even the "best" of them. To suppose that Jack arrives in the City at approximately the right time, and "scores" with practically the first woman he meets, is stretching it a bit. I suspect he was prowling the western boundary of his territory for quite some time, with potential victims evading his clutches for various reasons, long before Eddowes hove into view.

Wouldn't this explain the apparent time delay, i.e. JtR leaving Berner Street at around 1:00am but not seen with Eddowes until 1:35?

[John G]

Is this the article you were thinking of Michael?

Evening News 1st Oct

"THE TWO MURDERS NOT BY THE SAME HAND

The idea has got abroad that in some way it is sought to advance medical science by human vivisection, but however likely or unlikely the theory may be, it must not too readily be assumed that the two murders of yesterday morning had the same object. Dr. Phillips who was called to Berner-street shortly after the discovery of the woman's body, gives (so says Dr. Gordon, who has made a post-mortem examination of the other body) it as his opinion that the two murders were not committed by the same man. Upon this point Dr. Phillips is an authority. He it was who examined Annie Chapman and discovered the purpose of the murder. Since that he has been to Newcastle to investigate the brutal murder there, and he is qualified in some measure to speak of the manner of the assassin's workmanship."

Hi Joshua,

That's what I wondered. In fact, I have discussed this article before. Thus, Philip Sugden, in his book The Complete History of Jack the Ripper (2002), makes an obvious error by stating that, "Phillips saw less evidence of medical expertise in the Eddowes murder than in that of Annie Chapman and for this reason was inclined to the belief that these crimes had been done by different men." (P246).

He then cites the reference you have referred to as well as Report of Chief Inspector Swanson, 6 November 1888, HO 144/221/A49301C/8c.

However, the reference clearly indicates that Dr Phillips believed that Chapman and Stride were not killed by the same hand, and not Chapman and Eddowes.

[Batman]

Whatever her condition we know she went with JtR to the corner of Mitre Sq.

[Pcdunn]

Um-- but wasn't Kate SOBER when she came out of the drunk tank? Per the supposed conversation between her and the copper?

Do you mean he needed to find a prostitute who would like to get drunk (again)? Because I'm confused, otherwise.

[Batman]

But he can't succeed every time - no serial killer has managed that, not even the "best" of them. To suppose that Jack arrives in the City at approximately the right time, and "scores" with practically the first woman he meets, is stretching it a bit. I suspect he was prowling the western boundary of his territory for quite some time, with potential victims evading his clutches for various reasons, long before Eddowes hove into view.

That person was called Liz Stride. He didn't succeed in mutilating her. Hence moving on the prowl. All he needed was one drunk prostitute. He met her in the form of Eddowes coming out of the drunk tank. Her bad luck.

[Sam Flynn]

JtR is a disorganized offender if we listen to the experts. This means his choices of prostitutes is random.

But he can't succeed every time - no serial killer has managed that, not even the "best" of them. To suppose that Jack arrives in the City at approximately the right time, and "scores" with practically the first woman he meets, is stretching it a bit. I suspect he was prowling the western boundary of his territory for quite some time, with potential victims evading his clutches for various reasons, long before Eddowes hove into view.

[Sam Flynn]

But what if Kate's killer had met her earlier that evening and maybe had been the one to buy her drinks? They tentatively arrange to meet later or Kate goes back into that general area hoping to find him again. You have now removed the element of chance.

That's another "could", I'm afraid, CD. Kate didn't know that she'd end up in the cells, or that she'd have been released at the appropriate time. Too many coincidences.

[Batman]

There's one or two "coulds" there, Batman, and there's the rub. One of the aspects that bugs me about the Double Event is that the victim and killer's trajectories have to be more-or-less in alignment, as do their broad timings.

JtR is a disorganized offender if we listen to the experts. This means his choices of prostitutes is random. As stated elsewhere, many other serial killers kill prostitutes at random like this. This means planning is minimal. Could be any location.

What you are seeing is the outcome of a random event.

If we assumed Killer leaves Stride at her time of death he can randomly go anywhere, any direction. If he chooses to go Westwards (as no crimes had been commited that direction yet) while walking he WILL eventually meet Eddowes by chance.

Killer leaves point A (Strides scene of death) and goes towards point C at a time, speed and distance. Victim leaves point B (drunk tank) and goes towards point C at a time, speed and distance. They are random movements, neither is correlated, but both will be at point C at the same time because of the trajectories involved. The disorganized offender takes advantage at point C.

There is nothing magical about it. What it does is show that a person walking from the scenes of Strides murder in the direction of Mitre square will meet a random person called Eddowes on her way out of the drunk tank.

This is what the police knew back then. That by walking from both crime scenes they realized that the same killer had done just that. Walked between crime scenes.

To believe otherwise means that Eddowes killer just happened to coincidental kill Eddowes at the same time and location that an escaping Stride killer going in his direction could also have done. <-- therein lies the rub for people who believe the killings are not connected. The connection of walking distance and time is there.

[Harry D]

There's one or two "coulds" there, Batman, and there's the rub. One of the aspects that bugs me about the Double Event is that the victim and killer's trajectories have to be more-or-less in alignment, as do their broad timings.

Isn't that the case with any opportunistic killer?

[c.d.]

Hello Sam,

But what if Kate's killer had met her earlier that evening and maybe had been the one to buy her drinks? They tentatively arrange to meet later or Kate goes back into that general area hoping to find him again. You have now removed the element of chance.

c.d.

[John G]

There's one or two "coulds" there, Batman, and there's the rub. One of the aspects that bugs me about the Double Event is that the victim and killer's trajectories have to be more-or-less in alignment, as do their broad timings. He has little time to conduct a recce, pick his target, do any "chatting up" (or whatever), and has to "strike it lucky" with probably the first woman he encounters as he arrives in the City. I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just that it seems a bit too "magical" somehow.

This is an issue I have with some aspects of the JTR mythos, not just the Eddowes murder. It's all too easy to assume that Jack could pick a victim and make a successful strike whenever he fancied it, but this is highly unlikely to have been the case in reality.

But isn't that pretty much what the Yorkshire Ripper did? Despite the fact that he had to contend with a far more technically advanced police force? In fact, surely all JtR had to do was seek out vulnerable women- such as Nichols and Eddowes, who were intoxicated, and Chapman, who'd been ill-who were out alone, either late at night or in the early hours of the morning. And I'm willing to bet that there was no shortage of potential victims in 1888 Whitechapel. Personally, I think it was all too easy.

[Sam Flynn]

Eddowes, who is out of the drunk tank, if walking normally, could make Mitre Square by 1:08 at the least. ...
Stride's killer, if walking WESTwards, could make Mitre Square by 1:11am ...

There's one or two "coulds" there, Batman, and there's the rub. One of the aspects that bugs me about the Double Event is that the victim and killer's trajectories have to be more-or-less in alignment, as do their broad timings. He has little time to conduct a recce, pick his target, do any "chatting up" (or whatever), and has to "strike it lucky" with probably the first woman he encounters as he arrives in the City. I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just that it seems a bit too "magical" somehow.

This is an issue I have with some aspects of the JTR mythos, not just the Eddowes murder. It's all too easy to assume that Jack could pick a victim and make a successful strike whenever he fancied it, but this is highly unlikely to have been the case in reality.

[John G]

Mitre Square is about half a mile from Berner Street: my average walking speed is about 3.6 miles per hour so I could cover this distance in about 9-10 minutes. Therefore, if we speculate the killer left Berner at 1:00pm I would estimate he could have arrived at Mitre Square around 1:10-1:15.

If Eddowes was killed by JtR I think he would have spent very little time talking to her before deciding to strike. I mean, why would he need to? I certainly don't think he would have been in her company for 15-20
minutes before striking.

[Batman]

Can you please show me your calculations/estimates.

Every walking pace estimate I have seen from the time and location of Strides death walking (not running) at a normal pace towards the direction of Mitre Sq. area ends up with a person being within minutes of crossing paths with Eddowes in that area.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8755&highlight=trajectory

The investigators at the time understood this. I don't see how one can select the much lower probability that they are different murderers.

Stride's ETD 12:45-1:00am

Eddowes ETD 1:42am - 1:45 am

45 minutes max between them.

It's 11-15 minutes between Dutfield Yard and Mitre Square give or take a few minutes depending on which route you take. If you avoid commercial rd its the longer one.

Eddowes was released from Bishopsgate Police Station at 1am. From here to Mitre Square area is about 8 minutes.

Eddowes is in Mitre square by 1:34am talking to her murderer according to Lawende et al.

Eddowes, who is out of the drunk tank, if walking normally, could make Mitre Square by 1:08 at the least. It is more likely for someone who has recently been incapacitated from drink to take a little longer. Here we are talking a matter of a few minutes.

Stride's killer, if walking WESTwards, could make Mitre Square by 1:11am to 1:15am. The reason for him going here is due to geoprofiling and moving in a radius around where he lives so as not to be discovered near the murder sites.

If Stride's killer walked WEST there is a very good chance/certainty he would see Eddowes. She doesn't need to see him. He is the one doing the looking.

The convergence here between both arriving at the square or nearby is a matter of minutes. Its a Goldilocks zone. Not too short. Not too long, within parameters because at 1:34am she is seen talking to her murderer and well into a conversation it seems with her hand on his chest. There would likely have been a conversation talking place between the killer and Eddowes from 1:11am to 1:15am (killer arrival) to before 1:34am (witnesses) for the killer to meet her.

Again a matter of minutes.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Batman, I would say yes and no. Whilst Eddowes ultimately ended up in Mitre Square, the only thing we know for sure about her route is that she turned left along Bishopsgate St after leaving the police station. Presuming she then turned left again and headed towards Aldgate, then she could easily have met someone who left Berner Street at roughly the same time. But unless both parties walked at an unfeasibly slow pace, that leaves about 20 minutes unaccounted for until they were seen at Church Passage. Did they both take less direct routes or meet somewhere else? Did it take that long to convince her to accompany him to the square? Did they get a drink somewhere? Or some other explanation?