Lipski

[Abby Normal]

Hi Batman

Doesn`t this all depend on the intended victims.
Using your example, Radar had to plan carefully, if he was attacking specific targets that had caught his eye, in their homes.

Whereas, both Rippers (Jack and Yorkshire), were attacking a type of person who would always be available in a certain area at a certain time.

So, my view is that the Rippers were as organised as they`d needed to be, for their purposes.

yup.
And when the FBI first came up with these categories it was to help them to find out what type of person committed the crime.

Disorganized killers they determined were usually mentally ill, or young/inexperienced and/or it was the first kill, or trigger kill. Because of this- disorganized sig and MO can be all over the place.

Not the ripper who evolved and perfected his MO and sig over the course of the series.

definitely an organized killer. well IMHO anyway.

[Michael W Richards]

No worries. Here is a quote from the Echo 1st Oct. I'd be interested what you make of it.

"THE OPINION OF THE DOCTORS.
Although there appears to be very little doubt that both this crime and the murder of the unfortunate in Berner-street about the same time is the work of the miscreant who perpetrated the previous tragedies, the doctors are of opinion that the murder in Mitre-court is a "brutal imitation" of the Hanbury-street murder. At the post-mortem examination, there were- it is stated- indications of an attempt having been made to remove the organ alluded to, but nothing was missing from the body. It is also asserted that there are indications discovered that mutilation was evidently meant in the case of the Berner-street victim."

Hi Josh,

Obviously there is room to doubt the article, for one because it states nothing was missing from the body in Mitre Square, but it does convey essentially what I was posting earlier. Phillips answer at the Stride Inquest makes his position clear on Strides wounds...."Coroner: Is there any similarity between this case and Annie Chapman's case? - Phillips:There is very great dissimilarity between the two. In Chapman's case the neck was severed all round down to the vertebral column, the vertebral bones being marked with two sharp cuts, and there had been an evident attempt to separate the bones."

The last line is what Ive been saying all along here...presumptions are made about the lack of injuries but the evidence at face value says there was no interruption and the killer ONLY wished to kill Stride.

[Jon Guy]

While disorganized/organized is somewhat subjective I think what it boils down to is that organized offenders plan out the attack because the fantasy requires it. This means stalking, documenting, actual planning, planning how to get away, without leaving evidence, etc. This would describe BTK - Denis Rader.

Disorganized, doesn't mean no planning. It just means the murders involve more random elements and the murderer can react unplanned when opportunity presents itself, but may have their killing kit available, know where to take a victim, where to dump them. An example of this is the Yorkshire Ripper - Peter Suttcliffe.

For example, if Denis Rader came across a prostitute and had the opportunity to kill her, he likely wouldn't, because he needs complete control over everything and hasn't got that because of lack of planning. He attempted it one time to change his target and it didn't work out well from what I remember. Peter Suttcliffe though would take that opportunity and doesn't have complete control. Hence why he was caught literally red handed.

Hi Batman

Doesn`t this all depend on the intended victims.
Using your example, Radar had to plan carefully, if he was attacking specific targets that had caught his eye, in their homes.

Whereas, both Rippers (Jack and Yorkshire), were attacking a type of person who would always be available in a certain area at a certain time.

So, my view is that the Rippers were as organised as they`d needed to be, for their purposes.

[Batman]

While disorganized/organized is somewhat subjective I think what it boils down to is that organized offenders plan out the attack because the fantasy requires it. This means stalking, documenting, actual planning, planning how to get away, without leaving evidence, etc. This would describe BTK - Denis Rader.

Disorganized, doesn't mean no planning. It just means the murders involve more random elements and the murderer can react unplanned when opportunity presents itself, but may have their killing kit available, know where to take a victim, where to dump them. An example of this is the Yorkshire Ripper - Peter Suttcliffe.

For example, if Denis Rader came across a prostitute and had the opportunity to kill her, he likely wouldn't, because he needs complete control over everything and hasn't got that because of lack of planning. He attempted it one time to change his target and it didn't work out well from what I remember. Peter Suttcliffe though would take that opportunity and doesn't have complete control. Hence why he was caught literally red handed.

[Joshua Rogan]

Much appreciated Josh, it was. A bit on the disorganized side lately..thanks for the help.

No worries. Here is a quote from the Echo 1st Oct. I'd be interested what you make of it.

"THE OPINION OF THE DOCTORS.
Although there appears to be very little doubt that both this crime and the murder of the unfortunate in Berner-street about the same time is the work of the miscreant who perpetrated the previous tragedies, the doctors are of opinion that the murder in Mitre-court is a "brutal imitation" of the Hanbury-street murder. At the post-mortem examination, there were- it is stated- indications of an attempt having been made to remove the organ alluded to, but nothing was missing from the body. It is also asserted that there are indications discovered that mutilation was evidently meant in the case of the Berner-street victim."

[Abby Normal]

Why would they think that he was organized? JtR is classic disorganized.

Hi Batman
I believe the early profilers categorized him as either disorganized or mixed.
The main reason some went with disorganized traits is that the bodies were left in the open with no attempt to hide. and that's true if it happened like that today, because today we have cars-mobile bolt holes that serial killers use to pick up prostitutes and kill and dump them. The ripper didn't have that option. I don't think they really took the time frame into account. Not only that, but I would venture the avg casebook poster has more knowledge of the case than those FBI profilers.

the other marks of disorganized is random attacks, using a murder weapon found at the scene-like a rock, metal pipe etc or one of the victims own item of clothes to strangle them, and inadvertently leaving clues.

The riper showed organized traits such as bringing his own weapon, not leaving clues, rusing victims to get them where he wanted them, eluding capture-many times in the nick of time,planning when he would carry out attacks. Not to mention-he never got caught!

[Harry D]

Most serial killers are opportunists, since they rarely have any prior relationship with their victim. It wasn't like Chapman or Nichols had a set routine that the killer would've been privy to that night. Nichols could've easily been crashed in the doss house if she hadn't pissed her doss money away and wasn't forced back onto the streets. We don't know if Eddowes or Stride were actively soliciting on the night of their deaths, but like many women of their class they both had a history of casual prostitution so that cannot be ruled out. At any rate, soliciting or not, it's incredibly simplistic to believe that a serial killer has to murder under the exact same conditions each and every time.

As for the double event, the MO, the close proximity and timing of the two murders would suggest that they were carried out by the same killer. There was no clear suspect in Stride's case. It was a seemingly motiveless crime, as were all of the other Ripper murders. Where's the evidence that Michael Kidney or one of the club members had anything to do with Stride's murder?

[Michael W Richards]

I believe that the manner in which he conducted the first 2 murders suggests someone that planned what to do and put himself in the position to make that happen. That, to me, seems like organized thinking. Plus, the very consistent methodology. Seeks out the same sort of target, likely subdues and cuts the same way..certainly the double cut is important. Targets the pelvis and abdomen for the mutilations.

I don't see that same step by step process with Kate, nor do I know why she was where she was.

[Batman]

Why would they think that he was organized? JtR is classic disorganized.

[Abby Normal]

I recently saw a documentary in which an experienced homicide detective described JtR as an organised killer.

I would definitely say organized. I don't think the original FBI profiler was taking into account that in 1888 serial killers didn't have cars.

[Joshua Rogan]

JtR is a disorganized offender if we listen to the experts.

I recently saw a documentary in which an experienced homicide detective described JtR as an organised killer.

[Batman]

Why stipulate a "failed" raid at post office A, when Stride's was not a "failed" murder? Unless one sees it as an interrupted Ripper murder, which would be kind of a circular argument.

Let say both failed or both were successful at something. That doesn't change the probabilities. The events still occur with the same double coincidence. #1 x #2. Same result.

[Sam Flynn]

That's the very opposite although you are right about multiplying probabilities.

There is a failed post office raid at Point A.
There is a successful post office raid at Point B.
Both occur on the same day within the same local area.

Why stipulate a "failed" raid at post office A, when Stride's was not a "failed" murder? Unless one sees it as an interrupted Ripper murder, which would be kind of a circular argument.

[Batman]

It's more likely that they were independent killers, otherwise we'd have to multiply the probability of Stride's being killed by JTR by the probability that JTR just happened to be in the "Goldilocks Zone" at precisely the right time to meet and kill Eddowes.

That's the very opposite although you are right about multiplying probabilities.


There is a failed post office raid at Point A.
There is a successful post office raid at Point B.
Both occur on the same day within the same local area.

That is coincidence #1. Low probability event #1.

We learn that if one leaves Point A at the time of the crime and walks towards Point B, they will arrive at the same time the successful post office raid started.

That is coincidence #2. Low probability event #2.


The likelihood of both these low probability events being coincidence is extremely low (multiplication of probabilities). Therefore we should accept the higher probability that they are connected. Meaning it's the same bank robbers. Extrapolate to the murders and it means its the same killer.

That's how it works Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

Nor does it address my main points. My point is that in addition to accepting THOSE 'coincidences' in ADDITION you must also accept the coincidence that the killer of Stride walking towards Mitre Sq. will meet Eddowes coming out of the drunk tank because of the trajectories involved. Speed/distance/timing all are within the Goldilocks zone. Out of all the places and times this 'other' killer could have struck, he did it within that tiny zone.

Double the coincidence, double the low probability of being another hand.

It's more likely that they were independent killers, otherwise we'd have to multiply the probability of Stride's being killed by JTR by the probability that JTR just happened to be in the "Goldilocks Zone" at precisely the right time to meet and kill Eddowes.