Did jack kill liz stride?

[Tom_Wescott]

The whole club conspiracy is based on the assumption that the club felt the NEED to ward off suspicion. If this had been the first murder that Autumn I might be more inclined to give that idea credence but the Stride murder was preceded by others so I don't see how the club would necessarily become the focus of attention just because the murder was committed in such close proximity.

If I were Schwartz and had been asked to lie on behalf of the club I would have told them to stick it and YOU go out and lie.

To me, the best course of action for the club would have been to cooperate fully with the police which it appears is what they did.

c.d.

Except for Diemshitz gathering up everyone's knives and hiding them near the stage on the second floor. The police didn't like them, nor trust them, and they remained watched for months.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

risk

Hello Michael. Sneakiness? Emails? Not me. Let's not try to see conspiracies amongst posters--especially when there are none.

"And now that I'm there, why would Wess and company create a cover story involving Schwartz and Diemschitz and everyone else when all they had to do was toss the corpse in Diemschitz cart and haul it down to a Catholic church."

And risk being discovered by a constable? Even though innocent, they could scarcely have talked their way out of that one.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

One of the advantages the military claim in using the garotte is that this weapon is a great equalizer. A person adept in the use of the garotte need not be tall, nor strong. A 100 lb woman can bring down a 300 lb man.

You and I are talking about totally different things. Re-read the statement I posted from Arthur Harding. The term 'garrotting' in this instance refers to the use of an arm only. it required a lot of skill to do it quickly, efficiently, and without causing permanent damage or death to the victim.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

all

Hello (again) Michael.

"But I also don't buy a conspiracy between all the members."

Nor yet I. Does anyone?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Michael. Sneakiness? Emails? Not me. Let's not try to see conspiracies amongst posters--especially when there are none.

Hi Lynn. I just received your e-mail about GM. Is he 'in cahoots' with Observer and Curious? He may very well be, but I don't believe he's at the same pay grade. Amazing what these Fenians are still doing to obscure the mystery, isn't it? But don't worry, I won't reveal your suspicions or the evidence you're building to bring them down. They won't learn of your secret movement from me!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Wait, I AM posting this in PM, aren't I? For a second I thought I had toggled back to the message boards. Would be quite a disaster if this were made public!

[lynn cates]

P M

Hello Tom. Thanks for the private massage. Later, we can have speaks.

Until we meet again and the case is solv-ed.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

You and I are talking about totally different things. Re-read the statement I posted from Arthur Harding. The term 'garrotting' in this instance refers to the use of an arm only. it required a lot of skill to do it quickly, efficiently, and without causing permanent damage or death to the victim.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Ah, gotcha!
A garotte is a tool - a weapon.

Using the sleeper hold (the forearm) is effective if the forearm of the attacker & the neck of the victim are both bare.
The more clothing they both wear, the more play there is between the arm and the neck & the less area is exposed to apply the hold, and the more time it needs to take effect.

[Tom_Wescott]

The same week that Tabram was murdered, a Member of Parliament named Jordan was garrotted by a couple of men, presumably in an attempt to rob him, but a passerby chased the men away. Even the press referred to it as 'garrotting' when they only used the arm. I tried to upload a newspaper blurb I found about this attack but it's too large.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

The same week that Tabram was murdered, a Member of Parliament named Jordan was garrotted by a couple of men, presumably in an attempt to rob him, but a passerby chased the men away. Even the press referred to it as 'garrotting' when they only used the arm. I tried to upload a newspaper blurb I found about this attack but it's too large.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thats ok Tom, the term is often used both as a noun and a verb.

[curious]

Hi Lynn. I just received your e-mail about GM. Is he 'in cahoots' with Observer and Curious? He may very well be, but I don't believe he's at the same pay grade. Amazing what these Fenians are still doing to obscure the mystery, isn't it? But don't worry, I won't reveal your suspicions or the evidence you're building to bring them down. They won't learn of your secret movement from me!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Wait, I AM posting this in PM, aren't I? For a second I thought I had toggled back to the message boards. Would be quite a disaster if this were made public!

I'm not ca-hooting with anyone, here in the Tennessee hills. But that's too much about my personal life.

And here, we live at no pay grade, just grading the dirt and trying to move the mountains to make mole hills.

We do, however, often buy conspiracy theories perhaps because we don't have enough money to buy anything else.

curious

[Observer]

Hi Lynn. I just received your e-mail about GM. Is he 'in cahoots' with Observer and Curious? He may very well be, but I don't believe he's at the same pay grade. Amazing what these Fenians are still doing to obscure the mystery, isn't it? But don't worry, I won't reveal your suspicions or the evidence you're building to bring them down. They won't learn of your secret movement from me!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Wait, I AM posting this in PM, aren't I? For a second I thought I had toggled back to the message boards. Would be quite a disaster if this were made public!

Hahahahaha

The only ones I'm in cahoots with Tom, are Abberline, and Swanson, not by Email of course, by Ouija board. Not much use though, neither of them have got a clue who dunnit. Apparently ole Jack had signed a confidentiality contract with the Devil himself, he's living anonymously somewhere in Downtown Hades. Saving a fortune on central heating apparently.

Regards

Observer

[Michael W Richards]

Nonsense. A dead prostitute late at night with a cut throat right under the noses of other people nearby is evidence of interruption because the alternative is to look for another slitter of prostitutes' throats who got away at a time when there weren't any others, and at a time when very few women were murdered by any means in a given year. This is evidence of the same killer doing it and if it was the same killer, he couldn't do what he wanted to do. We know that time was short for the murderer. You yourself in the past have argued for the possibility of the murderer still being there in the shadows when Diemschitz came up. The timing was so tight that that is still a possibility. The evidence isn't physical because it cannot be if there was an interruption. So by always telling everyone to look for the evidence is like telling someone to prove there is no Easter Bunny. The evidence is in a logical pattern of thought that tells us, based upon that fall in 1888, that area of London, that class of woman, that means of dispatching a victim (leaving out the things that couldn't be done because of timing), the similarity of weapon, the deeper cut on the left side of the neck that did the killing...all these things logically tell a rational person, that the probablity leans in the direction of the same killer. All this crap about body position, cachous, dating, flowers, nicer clothing, non-solicitation, Radical conspiracies...it really is all crap. Your telling people they are wrong, is the biggest steaming pile of crap because you don't friggin' know. You don't know if it was an interruption or not. You don't know if it was JTR just pissed off and killing a woman as a one-off. No one knows.

Cheers,

Mike

When you make assumptions like you did above in the first quote I made bold, I can understand why you might have some issues with my statement. However, there is no proof that Liz Stride was there acting as a prostitute...something you know well even if you've decided otherwise. Perhaps if you would refrain from adding your own Easter bunny then we could converse logically about this matter.

Youre second section I emboldened is another issue, because all of the issues you disregard are circumstantial evidence and have direct bearing on Liz's deportment by her accoutrements, and the clubs reputation is essential when assessing why the main players in the club have zero corroboration for their stories.

I know that there is no evidence of an interruption Mike, something you seem to set aside. And I know that there is a victim who wasnt ripped. If youd like to create a storyline in your head about why she was there and what the club would do in a situation like this and who killed her, then thats up to you. Calling someone names because they refuse to accept your very imaginative view of the events and issues doesnt alter the fact that you argue for a scenario that is not dictated by ANY of the evidence.

All you have is a woman cut once on the property of anarchists,.... there is no "ripper" in the evidence, there is no interruption in the evidence, and there is no evidence that Liz Stride was soliciting. In fact there is evidence to counter those three assumptions. There are no mutilations, no attempted mutilations, no evidence of any interrupted activity, and no evidence that Liz Stride sought to sell sex to anyone that night. As for the club members responsible for some of the stories you likely use as "facts" for your guesses...there is no corroboration for Louis's arrival time or actions upon arriving, there is a discrepancy with both Eagle and Laves statements as they appear to have been at the same place alone without seeing each other, and there is no evidence that Israel Schwartz's story was provided to the Inquest in any format.

Believe what you will...but dont disparage the few of us who would prefer not to join you in your assumptive guesswork.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

I absolutely believe the club was not a place full of innocent people. But I also don;t buy a conspiracy between all the members. If Schwartz' story was a concoction by the club, it had to have been a long and well-planned concoction and not something made up in the heat of the moment. Much easier to get rid of the body or just leave it and say, "Huh, a dead woman, you say?"

Mike

Two words....blood trail. The body could not be moved, and they needed an explanation for why a woman is discovered dead on their property. Because, as youve noted and discarded, they were considered anarchists....who often had meetings Saturday night that led to people in the passageway after 1am...."low men", as described by the neighbors.

Funny that the passageway was empty on that particular night, and that not one senior club member saw anyone or anything...including each other.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Except for Diemshitz gathering up everyone's knives and hiding them near the stage on the second floor. The police didn't like them, nor trust them, and they remained watched for months.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Mrs D was doing the dishes in the kitchen, one presumes with soapy water and likely cleaning some cutlery. Perhaps not all the knives were hidden away.

As for Israel, didnt Debra post that she had found a connection between Wess and Schwartz in Paris? A connection with the club could explain a great deal about him and the likelihood a story was concocted to make the club appear blameless.

An witnessed offsite gentile attack seems along those lines. Particularly since the only person who seems to have heard any of that scuffle or seen either Pipeman or BSM was Israel himself.

Cheers

[lynn cates]

Maria

Hello Mike.

"As for Israel, didn't Debra post that she had found a connection between Wess and Schwartz in Paris?"

Not of which I'm aware. But Maria B. continues to research that.

Cheers.
LC