Did jack kill liz stride?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi c.d.,

To answer you theoretical question, no we shouldn't assume that. Just like we shouldn't assume the Broadshouldered Man was cockney. A recent find by Debra A (click here) showed that in the same year, 1888, in the same place, St George's, "Lipski" was used as a derogatory term by one Jew to another.

And welcome Mr. Fleetwood Mac to the discussion group.

Roy

Thanks for the welcome....Roy....and yes...I 'd agree about assumptions.....

I would say however that it seems a touch odd that a killer (in the event BS Man is the killer) is half way through tackling a victim....and decides to take the time to insult a fellow Jew. Hmmmm....

The most reasonable option to me is that it was a look out type signal involving Pipe Man and BS man working together...rather than an insult aimed at Schwartz....though clearly 'Lipski' was a derogatory term linking Jews with murderers the objective was to warn of a Jew approaching. That would seem most reasonable to me assuming Lipski was spoken.

Another thing that's troubling me here is this: Schwartz is over the road from BS man....he hears 'Lipski'...how can he not tell from whom it is spoken? Surely it's a part of human make up that in danger our senses would be alert to sounds and sights and their direction? I'm trying to run this through my head for plausibility.......one bloke in a doorway...the other one over the road......one of them speaks......I can't imagine a situation where you have two people in different directions to you and you don't realise which one of them is speaking. I suppose blindfolded......or dark to the point you can't see anything.....apart from that I'm struggling for an answer.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Thanks for taking the time to fill in a few details about Lipski.

And..yes...reading the replies I'd concede that it's not improbable that Schwartz would have picked out Lipski assuming he'd been in the area for a year.

Anybody any thoughts on not being able to determine the direction from where it came?

[FrankO]

But what do you think?....a non English speaking foreigner hearing a Cockney speak....he'd understand it? bearing in mind the difference in tone/speed everything? A completely alien language cloud by a thick accent?

Hi Fleetwood & all,

I think that, if Schwartz didn’t speak a word of English, he wouldn’t understand anything anybody would say in English, in whatever accent, and he probably wouldn’t be able to distinguish easily between any of those accents.

In fact, I think that no knowledge of the English language would even be in favor of the word shouted actually being ‘Lipski’, because then Schwartz’s hearing wouldn’t be distorted by any knowledge of the English language and English words that may have sounded similar.

Having said that, in what way would Schwartz’s account change significantly anyway, if the word had been something other than ‘Lipski’? He saw some scuffle, he heard some shout, he got scared and ran away.

All the best,
Frank

[Fleetwood Mac]

Having said that, in what way would Schwartz’s account change significantly anyway, if the word had been something other than ‘Lipski’? He saw some scuffle, he heard some shout, he got scared and ran away.

All the best,
Frank

Hi Frank....

Well...I suppose the implications are of importance. Lispki could imply a warning from BS man to Pipe man or vice versa...."Jew approaching".....or suggest that BS man was Jewish and it follows thus JTR was Jewish...it could lend some weight to that theory.

Personally I don't believe BS man was the killer.....so it doesn't matter a great deal to me.....but for those who think he was....then I'd say Lipski could inform possible suspects.

[FrankO]

Anybody any thoughts on not being able to determine the direction from where it came?

Hi again Fleetwood,

According to Swanson's report, Schwartz did tell where the shout was coming from: "The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road "Lipski"...". He just seems to have been unsure to whom it was directed: him or Mr Pipeman.

Best,
Frank

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi again Fleetwood,

According to Swanson's report, Schwartz did tell where the shout was coming from: "The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road "Lipski"...". He just seems to have been unsure to whom it was directed: him or Mr Pipeman.

Best,
Frank

Ahhh.....I see....was there not a report contradicting this...which went something along the lines of: "I could not tell who said it and to whom it was directed".

If not.....then it would be strange to aim it in the direction of Pipeman....based on being non-Jewish in appearance?

[FrankO]

Well...I suppose the implications are of importance. Lispki could imply a warning from BS man to Pipe man or vice versa...."Jew approaching".....or suggest that BS man was Jewish and it follows thus JTR was Jewish...it could lend some weight to that theory.

I see very little in Mr BS and Mr Pipeman as working together, Fleetwood. If the latter was a lookout, then he was a lousy one, because he should have warned his mate about the approaching Jew and not the other way around, instead of calmly lighting a pipe. Furthermore, it seems that Mr BS came from the direction of Commercial Road, while Mr Pipeman appeared from the direction of Fairclough Street.

Despite Debra A’s great find, I don’t see how it suggests that Mr BS was Jewish. ‘Lipski’ could just as well be used as an anti-Jewish slur by a Gentile as by a Jew.

Best,
Frank

[FrankO]

Ahhh.....I see....was there not a report contradicting this...which went something along the lines of: "I could not tell who said it and to whom it was directed".

I'm not sure, but I don't think there's such a report. Abberline's report of 1 November corroborates Swanson's report of 19 October on this point: "I beg to report that since a jew named Lipski was hanged for the murder of a jewess in 1887 the name has very frequently been used by persons as mere ejaculation by way of endeavouring to insult the jew to whom it has been addressed, and as Schwartz has a strong jewish appearance I am of the opinion it was addressed to him as he stopped to look at the man he saw ill-using the deceased woman.
I questioned Israel Schwartz very closely at the time he made the statement as to whom the man addressed when he called Lipski, but he was unable to say.
There was only one other person to be seen in the street, and that was a man on the opposite side of the road in the act of lighting a pipe."

If not.....then it would be strange to aim it in the direction of Pipeman....based on being non-Jewish in appearance?

That would be odd indeed. If, however, by 'the opposite side of the road' in the quote above the side of the board school, the east side, was meant, to which side Schwartz was crossing the street, then Schwartz was in the same general direction from Mr BS as Mr Pipeman after he had reached the other side of Berner Street. If so, it would be understandable why Schwartz was unable to say to whom the shout was directed, him or Mr Pipeman.

Best,
Frank

[robhouse]

It would seem that this report in the Star (Oct 1) has Pipe-man shouting out the warning to BS man...

"As he [Schwartz] turned the corner from Commercial Road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alleyway where the body was found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her. The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter, but just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of a public house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. "

[Hunter]

Here's the rest of that same Star report-

'...The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings...'

So... this could be some fanciful reporting or Scwartz's fanciful rendition because this is not what he told to the police.

[The Grave Maurice]

Since Schwartz may have been "in the theatrical line" perhaps he was still wearing his stage makeup and BS man actually shouted "Lipstick!".

[Garza]

Phew, spend all evening reading this thread. Great read.

Stride does seem to bring out the passion in people lol. I don't know why but out of all the different areas of Jack the Ripper, I keep on being lured to the Stride case .

Voted yes btw corey.

[corey123]

Hello Garza,

First and formost, hope you are having a very pleasent yet spooky halloween night

Yes this thread is a giant only surpassed by the enormous A6murder thread.

Thank you for voting. I had thought this thread was long dead, but who knows? The Stride murder is the only murder which is constantly being debated, explored, and researched. Call it an enigma inside of an enigma?

Happy Halloween.

[sdreid]

Yes makes the most sense

[corey123]

Hello Stan,

Hope you are having a wounderful Halloween.

I agree. It is very logical. We see a murder, which failed, and the response to the failure we would expect did happen, the murder of Eddowes. Also, we can explain the odd formation of the wound with the circumstances and the time index is perfect. Same victim type, same night, same hour. What does this tell me? Same killer. Call me simple.