Did jack kill liz stride?

[Hunter]

Hello Sox,

Nothing from witness testimony suggests that Hunter, and I do mean nothing... she cleaned rooms at her own lodging house and was paid sixpence for her troubles. She had money.

She was broke when found dead and there was no indication that her pockets were rifled.

... she leaves a piece of green velvet with Catherine Lane to be given back on her return. Suggesting that Stride already had a bed.

It only suggests that she wanted her to hold it until she got back. She evidently planned to come back sometime. There's no indication that it wasn't that night. It has also been stated that Liz didn't pre-pay for her bed, but this was common for these women not to do so,usually waiting to pay on their return.

... James Brown hears Stride say to a man "No, not tonight, some other night." Hardly the act of a soliciting prostitute.

If Mr. Brown saw Liz at 12:45, as he stated, it was after PC Smith's sighting and Brown saw no flower on Stride, but Smith did. Brown could have seen the other couple that was noticed by Mrs. Mortimer.

... she is seen kissing and cuddling on two separate occasions, again hardly what you would expect from a common prostitute, she also has a flower...strong indications of something much more than sex for money.

Why would that be the case? Eddowes was supposedly seen with her hand on a man's chest. Kelly was singing to Blochy face. It wouln't be illogical for a prostitute to show affection to someone they were planning to have sex with. I don't think it would be uncommon for a punter to buy a flower either. Of course, Liz could have bought it to look pretty. She was seen kissing and cuddling with men of different descriptions so she was really spreading her free love around.

Also, PC Smiths statement is quite clear, ''he had a newspaper parcel in his hand'', not a newspaper.

I'm a sorry. I don't understand that one. You don't think the man with the deerstalker hat and parcel standing with Liz in front of the club could be a club member?

If witnesses are to be relied on, then Liz Stride was seen with several men in less than 2 hours before her death- unless it was one man with a hat collection. She's out on the street at 1 a. m. Maybe she was selling raffle tickets for the club.

All of the victims had a common pattern. They had suffered failed marrages or had on and off relationships. They were alcoholics. When they found themselves on their own, they reverted to prostitution. They spent their money quickly and kept late hours. Yes, Liz cleaned rooms, Kate went hopping and Annie made artificial flowers, but if these women were killed by the same hand they were probably killed because of the one common denominator that they all shared- either full or part time.

[Sox]

they were probably killed because of the one common denominator that they all shared- either full or part time.

Now explain why please.

Why would that be the case? Eddowes was supposedly seen with her hand on a man's chest. Kelly was singing to Blochy face. It wouln't be illogical for a prostitute to show affection to someone they were planning to have sex with. I don't think it would be uncommon for a punter to buy a flower either. Of course, Liz could have bought it to look pretty. She was seen kissing and cuddling with men of different descriptions so she was really spreading her free love around.

Simply because prostitutes do not behave that way Hunter, 'affection' & 'kissing' are things that they keep for themselves and for those that they care for, we obviously see these women in a very different light. You have no idea that Kelly was singing to anyone but herself Hunter, for her own amusement. These women prostituted themselves through need, and they would pawn boots or scrub floors before having to offer their bodies for sale. So what were Liz Strides needs that night, what were Kate Eddowes? Refute as many statements as you like Hunter, there is still a strong indication that Liz Stride was not soliciting that night, she was heard turning men down.

She could have been at that Club looking for a late drink, she could have been there looking for one of the Jews she charred for, she could simply have been making her way tipsily up that street after a good night out, have you never been in town and seen a drunken girl accost a succession of men, laughing,joking and teasing? There are myriad reasons why she could have been there.

[Septic Blue]

From the first, of Charles Booth's three publicized surveys: "Labour and Life of the People: London" (Two Volumes plus Appendix); Williams and Norgate; 1889-1891:

Volume I: "East London"; 1889:

Part I: The Classes.

Chapter IV: Institutions, Etc.

Page 94:

"Working Men's Clubs: The 115 Clubs in East London and Hackney may be primarily divided into those which can be entered by a stranger and those which cannot. Those which open their doors at all, do so very readily and very completely. They have not only nothing to hide, but are very generally proud of their position. They are moreover not infrequently linked by affiliation to the "Working Men's Club and Institute Union", or the "Federation of Working Men's Social Clubs", on terms which provide for the welcome of the members of any one club by any other club in the same association. Thus a very wide natural publicity is given to all their proceedings, and it is not difficult for the social enquirer to obtain trustworthy information about them and even himself to experience their hospitalities.

As to those which decline to open their doors to strangers, I can give no information except as to the reputation they enjoy, which, it must be said, is very bad. They are usually called "Proprietary" clubs, and there can be no doubt that betting and various forms of gambling, but chiefly betting, are their main objects. On my list are 32 such clubs within the limits of the district. …"

Page 95:

"The clubs which live in the light of day may conveniently be considered in three divisions: (a) Philanthropic clubs in connection with churches or missions, started, supported, and managed by outside influence; of these there are 33; (b) Social, numbering 18; and (c) Political, of which there are 32."

Page 95-96:

"… A practical distinction between the philanthropic and the self-supporting club is to be found in the question of drink. All the philanthropic clubs but one are teetotal; while, with the sole exception of the Jewish Club in Great Alie Street, all the social and political clubs are not. To make a club self-supporting without the sale of beer is very difficult. The bar is the centre and support of a working man's club – the pole of the tent. The structure must be upheld in some way, and failing the profits from liquor sold, support must be found in subscriptions from outside; for in no other way but the paying for drinks will any of these clubs make sufficient effort to support itself – a rather striking proof of the preference for indirect taxation. Moreover, the clubs are not only run on the profits of the beer sold, but the prospects of these profits in very many cases raise the funds needed to make a start. Brewers find it to their interest to follow up their customers in this way, and lend money toward the fittings of the club. Repayment is not pressed, nor is the security scrutinized; for the lender is repaid by profit on the beer supplied.

The difference between the Social and Political clubs is slight, lying mainly in the mode in which they are started. Social clubs in East London may or may not acquire a political tinge, but those intended to be political cannot stand unless social, and the social side tends to become more important than the political. For both, the friendly mug of beer – primordial cell of British social life – supplies the social bond, as well as the financial basis. There must be beer, but there is a good deal else. Almost every club has entertainments on Saturday and Monday, and a concert or discussion, lecture, or some other attraction, once or in some cases twice in the day, on Sunday; and billiards, bagatelle, and whist are greatly played. Whether from the publican or from the club, these are the things demanded by the people – beer, music, games, and discussion."

Page 100:

"The subscription to an ordinary working men's political club is 6d per month with 6d entrance fee. The club opens at 6:30PM and closes at 12 or 12:30; on Sundays, 11:00AM to 1:00PM and 6:30PM to 11:30PM. If the club remains open longer the bar is closed. Great care is taken not to serve beer to anyone not a member or entitled by affiliation to members' privileges. …"

Page 104:

List of Clubs – continued.

Registration District: St. George in the East

- "Artisan Radical Club"; Dean Street; "Political"
- "International Working Men's Club"; Berner Street; "Political"
- "International Working Men's Club"; Prince's Square; "Political"
- "German Club"; Prince's Square; "Social"
- "German Bakers' Club"; Christian Street; "Social"
- "German Club"; Christian Street; "Social"
- "St. John's Working Men's Club"; Sanders Street; "Philanthropic"
- "Working Men's Club"; Cable Street; "Philanthropic"
- "Warsaw Club"; Joseph Street; "Proprietary"

[Hunter]

Hi Sox,

Simply because prostitutes do not behave that way Hunter, 'affection' & 'kissing' are things that they keep for themselves and for those that they care for, we obviously see these women in a very different light. You have no idea that Kelly was singing to anyone but herself Hunter, for her own amusement. These women prostituted themselves through need, and they would pawn boots or scrub floors before having to offer their bodies for sale. So what were Liz Strides needs that night, what were Kate Eddowes? Refute as many statements as you like Hunter, there is still a strong indication that Liz Stride was not soliciting that night, she was heard turning men down.

How do you know prostitutes didn't show affection to customers? It would make good business sense to me. Kelly was seen singing to Blochy face by a witness.

Liz could have been at the club looking for a drink, but being broke, she would need to look for a man to stand her drink also.

Your right, Sox, these women prostituted themselves out of need. Whatever Liz did with her sixpence, she was broke at 1 a.m.. Kate Eddowes was broke also, with no bed paid for.

Another thing these women had in common ( at least the ones kiled outdoors) was that did didn't wear underwear, or drawers, as they were then called because of the drawstring around the leg. Wonder why that was ?. Maybe it was just charwomen, hop pickers and flower makers that didn't wear drawers.

We can speculate whether a known prostitute, supposedly seen with several men, out at 1 a.m., broke, in front of a club inhabited by mostly men was soliciting or not, Lord knows anything is possible; but if I had to bet...

P. S.- Looks like SB came up with some useful information for you.

[c.d.]

If Liz was with a potential customer who had money and was spending it on her, it would not be surprising that she would turn down another would be customer.

Hugging and kissing would seem to be an individual choice. I don't think there were any Union rules against it. Prostitutes need customers but even more importantly they need regular customers.

Having money to meet your needs at the time is great provided that you expect to die the next day.

c.d.

[Septic Blue]

Something, which I failed to mention:

Page 104:

List of Clubs – continued.

Registration District: St. George in the East

- "Artisan Radical Club"; Dean Street; "Political"
- "International Working Men's Club"; Berner Street; "Political"
- "International Working Men's Club"; Prince's Square; "Political"
- "German Club"; Prince's Square; "Social"
- "German Bakers' Club"; Christian Street; "Social"
- "German Club"; Christian Street; "Social"
- "St. John's Working Men's Club"; Sanders Street; "Philanthropic"
- "Working Men's Club"; Cable Street; "Philanthropic"
- "Warsaw Club"; Joseph Street; "Proprietary"

- International Working Men's Club; Berner Street; Political
- International Working Men's Club; Prince's Square; Political

Of course, the Berner Street club was the 'International Working Men's Educational Club'. As for the Prince's Square club; … it could have been the 'International Working Men's Club', or perhaps the 'International Working Men's _________ Club'. Booth's references, unfortunately, lacked a degree of specificity.

But, assuming a certain 'affiliation' between the two; …

Page 94:

"... They are moreover not infrequently linked by affiliation to the "Working Men's Club and Institute Union", or the "Federation of Working Men's Social Clubs", on terms which provide for the welcome of the members of any one club by any other club in the same association. …"

Page 100:

"... Great care is taken not to serve beer to anyone not a member or entitled by affiliation to members' privileges. …"

… we must consider the possibility that Stride was acquainted with someone who had direct access to each of their facilities.

Please remember, after all, … that Stride had a distinct connection with Prince's Square, Parish of St. George in the East.

[c.d.]

It seems like we might be overlooking the obvious here. Where I live smart cab drivers find out the time a particular theater will let out and make themselves available to the exiting customers at that time. Is it so hard to believe that Liz simply might have been doing the same thing?

c.d.

[Septic Blue]

Where I live smart cab drivers find out the time a particular theater will let out and make themselves available to the exiting customers at that time. Is it so hard to believe that Liz simply might have been doing the same thing?

"Is it so hard to believe …"

No! It is not!

And I have not suggested that it should be!

[Sox]

Another thing these women had in common ( at least the ones kiled outdoors) was that did didn't wear underwear, or drawers, as they were then called because of the drawstring around the leg. Wonder why that was ?. Maybe it was just charwomen, hop pickers and flower makers that didn't wear drawers

Most womens 'Drawers' in the LVP were crotchless Hunter, so it really made no difference, and sarcasm does not suit you.

[Tom_Wescott]

The thread is getting rather long, so I'm trying to quickly catch up here on some Stride points. And thanks for posting that, Septic Blue!

So the exact nature of that club, is important to me.

Me too. It was a socialist club. It was not a social club. It was primarily Jewish. There were in fact criminals there.

Stride did not pay for a bed that night although it's clear from her lending of the velvet that she intended to return.

It is not and was not abnormal for prostitutes to kiss. Stride was seen kissing two different men within the same hour, so I think it's rather clear she was soliciting.

Following Stride's death, Michael Kidney moved into the cheapest lodgings in the East End, so I it's quite possible that Stride's prostitution was a significant part of their shared income.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Most womens 'Drawers' in the LVP were crotchless Hunter, so it really made no difference, and sarcasm does not suit you.

Hello Sox,

That's a good point. I apologize for the apparent sarcasm. It wasn't necessary. We can respectfully agree to disagree on this one.

[corey123]

Sox,

It is not you to descide weather sarcasm is suitable for Hunter. It is his choice.

This thread takes alot to catch up on. I would have to say.

"In conclusion of the evidence posted by Tom Wescott and Septic Blue, the IWWC is a primary jewish socialist club frequinted by JEWS and used by JEWS., end of case".

Quote, Corey Browning(Me).

Anyway, weather the IWWC was strictly jewish(My opinion) or not doesn't make our thread of Stride any easier. She was soliciting due to the points pointed out already. Unless the woman seen kissing TWICE was another woman.

Yours truly

[Tom_Wescott]

Regarding Sox's strong dismissal of the Goulston Street graffiti as having no relation to the murders or victims, I'd like to point out that there are many interpretations as to the meaning of the graffiti. In fact, it really makes no sense outside of the context of the apron piece and the two murders that night.

I'm sure we'd all agree that had the graffiti said 'The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for Jane Kelly', then we'd all be in agreement it referred to Eddowes, since that was the alias she gave the police a few hours before when she was arrested. However, Jane Kelly was not the first alias she gave them. Her preferred alias was 'Nothing', which she repeatedly gave them as her name when asked. Now, we might infer that this was a common alias she used, possibly to clients as well as to police. Is this how she introduced herself to Jack? Did she tell him the amusing story of her run-in with the law that had just happened?

Did the graffiti actually mean 'The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for Eddowes'?

I just thought I'd toss this old chestnut in as a reminder that there are numerous intepretations for the graffiti, and strangley, the ones that make the most sense seem to pertain the the murders.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[corey123]

Tom,

That had never crossed my mind. Wow, maybe it did mean that. Who knows.

It does make sense doesn't it?

Yours truly

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Corey,

It's not my preferred interpretation, but Sox wanted one that related the graffiti to a victim.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott