Did jack kill liz stride?

[martin wilson]

Martin,

I have stated many a reason, if you wish to know why I wouldn't go with your theory(which isn't that bad at all) is because of my own belief, which would take well over an hour to type out on my iPhone. If you wish to see the amny reasons I believe what I believe,check out my thread "serial killers, a pattern".
Just click on my profile and hit threads created by, it will be under there.

Welcom to the forums and good luck.
Yours truly.

thanks for your help, really much appreciated. I will never change my mind on this so please accept/reject. Trying to understand what motivates a serial killer is impossible. All that is nessecary is to recognise the signature, which people confuse with m.o. so that victims can be recognised as being killed by the same person.. m.o. will change according to each individual circumstance, this victim will scream so the killer stuffs something into their mouth or holds his hand over the mouth, resulting in injuries (split lips, gums etc) that will not be seen in other victims. This victim may fight back, resulting in defensive wounds, more frenzied stabbing, damage to the face and skull if the killer has knocked them unconscious with a fist or some other object, resulting in injuries not seen in other victims.
When we look at the ripper killings we see 2 things. 1. The m.o in 5 killings are identical, prostitutes killed in the early hours of the morning and then mutilated, bodies exposed, left where they were killed. 2. the signature is the same, the intention is to mutilate, humiliate, degrade. Consider Martha Tabram;Peter Sutcliffe used a brick in a sock until changing to a claw hammer, so what changed was simply the efficiency with which he attacked.Marthas killer simply found a more efficient tool for the subsequent murders but the signature , the overkill, attacking the breasts and genitalia, the need to degrade remained the same.From what I read in your thread objectors keep mixing up m.o. and signature, going into sometimes great detail about differences at each site, which is of course self evident because each site, each circumstance was different. The only real difference in Elizabeth Strides murder was that she was not mutilated, and there is a compelling reason for this, Diemschultz DID turn up and disturbed him, although the killer must surely have heard the pony and cart coming along the street a while before Diemschultz turned into the yard, if he fled upon hearing rather than seeing it gives him less time. I dont back away from my theory because I want to be liked, it is because It is unprecedented, no serial killer has ever acted on anything else other than the primary motivation, which is gratification, I have never heard of any serial killer having an additional agenda, in this case to try to stir up trouble for the jews. but the coincidences then are remarkable. any way you are right, Peter Sutcliffe returned to one victim and sawed her head off.If the yorkshire ripper murders were unsolved would we be debating if she was a victim or not? You are on exactly the right path, more power to your elbow. warm regards madmart

[Tom_Wescott]

The Jewish Connection

Welcome to Berner Street, Martin, and hello again Hunter, Corey, et al,

The Jewish connection, or more specifically, the club connection, has intrigued me for sometime, and I feel there probably is something to it, although I can't quite put my finger on it yet.

I apologize if the following is redundant, and I hate to be seen as repeating myself, but since there are new posters with an interest in the Jewish connection, I thought it worth sharing some of the following:

* The Berner Street club, in association with Annie Besant, headed up the Matchgirls Strike Fund. Their headquarters was 22 Hanbury Street. Chapman was murdered at 29 Hanbury Street.

* The club would organize tradesman marches. At least one such march gathered outside the Jewish Baths in Goulston Street, which was almost opposite the road from where the graffiti was left. The marches terminated in Mitre Square.

* There were only 12 people with the name Kosminski/Kozminski living in London at the time. One lived in Berner Street.

* William Wess, the club secretary, was aware of the Schwartz incident from a personal source. His source had to be one of the following: the police, Schwartz himself, or an unidentified witness to the event who did not speak to the police, possibly BS Man himself.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[corey123]

Martin,

Thanks for reading some of that thread. How far did you read? I 100% agree, people do seem to mix m.o with signiture.
M.O= The approach, asphixiation, and victim type.
Signiture=target areas(vagina, abdomen, ect) and throat wound.
Fantasy= abdominal mutilations


I do tend to add martha in my list of persons murdered by Jack the Ripper.

Glad that you want to keep your own theory. Sticking to your guts and not jumping on the bandwagon is a wise move. Although many may disregard your theory, there will be the ones who wholly accept it, and that makes all the effort worth it. Indaviduality is a good thing in ripperology.

Yours truly

p.s Although I can assure you will change your opinion one way or another on these forums.

[martin wilson]

the jewish connection

Martin,

Thanks for reading some of that thread. How far did you read? I 100% agree, people do seem to mix m.o with signiture.
M.O= The approach, asphixiation, and victim type.
Signiture=target areas(vagina, abdomen, ect) and throat wound.
Fantasy= abdominal mutilations


I do tend to add martha in my list of persons murdered by Jack the Ripper.

Glad that you want to keep your own theory. Sticking to your guts and not jumping on the bandwagon is a wise move. Although many may disregard your theory, there will be the ones who wholly accept it, and that makes all the effort worth it. Indaviduality is a good thing in ripperology.

Yours truly

p.s Although I can assure you will change your opinion one way or another on these forums.

Well, thats really why I joined, you know what it's like, you think you have really got something and it's driving you crazy, so you look for the unfortunate fact that ruins a beautiful theory, and this site is obviously the best place to do that, for example this is the wiki definition of the jewish new year or rosh hashana ' known as the day of judgement, when the righteous are immediatley inscribed into the book of the living, the middle class are given ten days to repent and become righteous and the wicked are blotted out of the book of the living' pretty significant you think, but of course you are only really seeing one small piece that might not even be relevant, testing required! btw there was a good example of NPD in 'women who kill' last week on channel 5, unfortunatley it's presented in a very silly noir style but its tolerable, this woman shot her husband, and she scared me to death, after about 10 seconds watching and listening it was obvious that this was a very, very strange person, just something missing you know? warm regards madmart

[martin wilson]

the jewish connection

apologies for the delay in replying, corey123 kindly suggested I read his threads, which I was in the middle of when I got tired, and as an insomniac I take any chance i get, didn't last long though and as it is going to take me a while to get through the reading I felt I should reply to you as a matter of courtesy. As for your point, why the very idea! blokes in drink, wanting to go with a woman (of which there seemed a plentiful supply) in a nice, handy, dark yard? I never heard of anything so ridiculous! No of course you are absolutely right, the clincher is of course that nobody ever saw anything or anybody doing anything, no time never, no sir.An honest answer would be yes, sometimes. This could be hugeley significant because it leads me to a very troubling thought.
Mr Israel Schwartz was a jewish gentleman.
Pipeman always seemed to me to be straight out of central casting. and in version two he had a knife, this has been suggested as the newspaper spicing it up, a very perceptive suggestion that the knife helped to explain why Mr Schwartz walked away from a woman being assaulted, or yet a third alternative called not getting your story straight, but of course this would completley destroy everything we know about the murder so it couldn't be could it? o.k so I have implicated Israel Schwartz in the cover up without a shred of evidence, later on I will also be impugning Mr Davies of 29 Hanbury St and how he used his yard as a knocking shop, no wonder I sign meself madmart. best regards.

I needed to read up again on your point about the knife, bang on, Dr Blackwell mentioned it might be a slaughterers knife and Baxter flattened him.My impression of Baxter is that he was his own man, and now he is toeing the line, where is pressure coming from, the police? they couldnt stand each other, higher up? but its just a knife found in the street, and yet Baxter, the holy terror for the facts is now suppressing a potentially important bit of evidence, were they really that worried that it would all kick off in the east end? I need to do some more research, warm regards,madmart.

[martin wilson]

the jewish connection

Welcome to Berner Street, Martin, and hello again Hunter, Corey, et al,

The Jewish connection, or more specifically, the club connection, has intrigued me for sometime, and I feel there probably is something to it, although I can't quite put my finger on it yet.

I apologize if the following is redundant, and I hate to be seen as repeating myself, but since there are new posters with an interest in the Jewish connection, I thought it worth sharing some of the following:

* The Berner Street club, in association with Annie Besant, headed up the Matchgirls Strike Fund. Their headquarters was 22 Hanbury Street. Chapman was murdered at 29 Hanbury Street.

* The club would organize tradesman marches. At least one such march gathered outside the Jewish Baths in Goulston Street, which was almost opposite the road from where the graffiti was left. The marches terminated in Mitre Square.

* There were only 12 people with the name Kosminski/Kozminski living in London at the time. One lived in Berner Street.

* William Wess, the club secretary, was aware of the Schwartz incident from a personal source. His source had to be one of the following: the police, Schwartz himself, or an unidentified witness to the event who did not speak to the police, possibly BS Man himself.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

hello Tom, thank you for your welcome and for sharing your info, pretty eye opening stuff, this has really helped to question one of my own objections, which is that around the Whitechapel area you probably couldn't go 10 yards without coming across a jewish connection of some sort, I'm inverting it, I'm convinced that the area was targeted precisely because of that. As you may have read I really am in two minds (which is two more than I've actually got) I am 100% with corey 123, the signature patterns indicate a killer with sociopathic tendencies which would always be the sole motivating force, and yet more evidence keeps turning up to indicate an anti semetic agenda as well, I need to do more research, thanks again, warm regards madmart

[corey123]

Well, thats really why I joined, you know what it's like, you think you have really got something and it's driving you crazy, so you look for the unfortunate fact that ruins a beautiful theory, and this site is obviously the best place to do that, for example this is the wiki definition of the jewish new year or rosh hashana ' known as the day of judgement, when the righteous are immediatley inscribed into the book of the living, the middle class are given ten days to repent and become righteous and the wicked are blotted out of the book of the living' pretty significant you think, but of course you are only really seeing one small piece that might not even be relevant, testing required! btw there was a good example of NPD in 'women who kill' last week on channel 5, unfortunatley it's presented in a very silly noir style but its tolerable, this woman shot her husband, and she scared me to death, after about 10 seconds watching and listening it was obvious that this was a very, very strange person, just something missing you know? warm regards madmart

Some really good examples of narcissistic personality disorder are Ted Bundy and Harold Shipman.

Yours truly

[martin wilson]

Some really good examples of narcissistic personality disorder are Ted Bundy and Harold Shipman.

Yours truly

yeah, didn't Bundy represent himslef in court? and Shipman played god so two perfect examples there, also your objectors who want th m.o. to be exactly the same in each case would love Shipman because he was very consistent, Bundy, didn't he mix things up a bit? its been years since i read any Bundy stuff, although I did see the interview where he blamed it all on porn (textbook NPD) creepy guy, weird eyes. warm regards madmart

[Sox]

Some really good examples of narcissistic personality disorder are Ted Bundy and Harold Shipman.

Yours truly

I'm pretty sure Bundy was diagnosed as a manic depressive who suffered from antisocial personality disorder.

[martin wilson]

I'm pretty sure Bundy was diagnosed as a manic depressive who suffered from antisocial personality disorder.

a Gene Hunt fan! hello!, ASPD can commonly coexist with NPD so its not an either/or situation, but representing himself in court, and wasnt there some political stuff as well? for me fits better to NPD
DO NOT MOVE! YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY ARMED B******S!!

[Hunter]

Hello Martin,

I'm not much of a psychoanalyst. Each person is different and there's not enough labels to go around for everyone. If the definition of a sexual serial killer is one who gains sexual gratification from his act, I'm not sure this applies to our subject. There's no evidence, as there is in other killers ,of sexual activity at the murder scenes. Except for Kelly, there wasn't enough time. Now what he did after he got home, I don't know. Maybe that's where the organ removal comes in; though, my thoughts are that it was simple trophy taking to gloat over his "acomplishments". He chose prostitutes because they were easy targets. His act was born out of hatred. That he seemed to demean women and expressed it in the mutilations may result from a difficult relationship with his mother- i.e.- Bundy, or it may be the result of contracting a STD and extracting vengeance. But, what do I know?

Back to Stride. I think Stride's murder, in many ways, is the lynchpin in this whole series of murders; not just because of the lack of mutilations, but the Jewish question as well. I'm not into conspiracies- heck, I think Oswald killed Kennedy, because that's what the evidence shows. The evidence( or lack of) with Stride's murder in Dutfield's Yard shows a group of Jewish anarchist that were freaking out when Stride's body was found. Their behaviour would be understandable considering the social climate at the time. What concerns me is the evidence lost because of it.

Stride's murder, in my opinion, ( please excuse me for the redundantcy- my opinion, my belief, I think etc... but I've learned that you set yourself up for a retaliatory response from other posters if you don't insert them. Oh, what the Hell, you do anyway.) ... Anyway... I believe that Stride's murder offered the best chance for police to find out who this killer was ( if it was the same man)... And if it was the same man, it was a botched affair on his part. There were more witnesses here than any of the others; I believe many more than came forth. If there was that much activity around the club that night, many more people saw Stride, and I think someone saw her with her killer. Schwartz was probably a smokescreen to throw suspicion off a Jew or club member. I don't think a club member was the murderer, but this see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil mentality coupled with the reluctance of the police to show any implication of a Jew is a good reason why this case wasn't solved.

I know many Ripperologist dismiss the Ghoulston St. grafitto, but the police certainly didn't, even though they erased it. What if it did tie in to Berner St.? In their haste to keep an East End Civil War from happening they destroyed critical evidence. They dismissed the knife found later near Berner St. and failed to get credible witness testimony at the murder site itself because the very people who probably had useful information- the club members- clammed up out of fear. That whole night was a lost opportunity to put and end to the murders and Mary Kelly paid for it. The irony is that most of the police officals suspected a Jew anyway- despite Schwartz's testimony and the graffito. But, as you stated, Martin, ol' Jack may have seen the social instability as a way to have more fun; or, maybe it was all a coinsidence: or mabye it was the Fenians- Oh, no ! I didn't say that.

I'm off of my soap box now. Got to go take a xanac.

[DVV]

Hi Hunter,

I believe that Stride's murder offered the best chance for police to find out who this killer was

Interesting...Could you develop ?

I know many Ripperologist dismiss the Ghoulston St. grafitto, but the police certainly didn't, even though they erased it. What if it did tie in to Berner St.?

Well said. Once again, if it doesn't allude to the murders, the GSG becomes abstruse...too much.

Amitiés,
David

[corey123]

Hunter,

Jack the Ripper did most likely have a level of sexual gratification from the murders. Bundy was a Narcissistic control freak and when he lost that control he sought for his only way to bring it back, murder.

Shipman was another Narcissistic control freak who loved killing his older patients slowly.

There is no reason not to suggest that Jack the Ripper could have been a Narcissist.

Actually, I think over 50% of serial rapists and killers have some Narcissistic traits present.

Anyways, back to Stride.

I agree with Hunter, if Stride was killed by Jack, that would have been the only chance at catching him they had, he had made a mistake, slipped up. Something went wrong with Strides murderer, if Jack.

About the GSG it did have a ties to Berner St, Kate Eddowes apron. Again this relies on weather Jack killed Liz or not. It has been stated that maybe the GSG was ment for the gates of Dutfields Yard.

Sorry Hunter but I need to go back to the Psychoanalysis. The definition of a sexual sadists is a person who gets sexual gratification from the pain or humilition of others. There is no need for sexual contact at all for the killer to get gratification.

Lastly, I doubt it was the Fenians.

Yours truly

[martin wilson]

Hey Hunter,
The Fenians? I'm married to an irish woman, don't bring them into this or we have got no chance!
And yet.........
As a general statement extremist groups love to cause trouble, because thats what they do and you can stick that fact in the bank.Over here we had got Islam4uk wanting to march through Wooton Basset and lets not mess about their intention was purely inflammatory.
So a third party trying to set both sides against each other?, thats got be worth a look surely?
The psychological stuff, yeah, I mentioned to corey that I think it's pointless trying to understand the mind of a serial killer, I know Peter Sutcliffe got off with his victims but that was him, not Jack. I do agree with corey that the signature patterns indicate a single killer with sociopathic tendencies but other than that I think it's a dead end. You can research the sociopathic indicators and say this or that applies but there will never be agreement on a solid profile we can ascribe to a suspect. all it's going to produce is reams and reams of opinion and counter opinion which I dont think is going to get us anywhere. Anyway I speak from embittered personal experience, I have dealt with more than my fair share of psychiatrists and I wouldn't hang a cat based on their opinion, in fact based on their opinion I wouldn't even bring the cat in for some fairly tough questioning.
As for Berner street, the only 'facts' I believe are PC Smiths' identification of Liz. simply because of the copper mentality, he would have thought "'Ello,'ello,'ello wot's going on 'ere then?" and so it would not have been a casual glance. The only other 'fact' I accept is that PC Lamb made a complete pigs ear of securing the crime scene, everything inbetween is fluid.
As for Izzy Schwartz, do I really have to spend hours going through old building records to prove that his new house in Ellen street was a lot nicer than his house in Berner street? enough said
I dont think prostitutes at that time wandered all over London picking up punters wherever they could, I think they worked the pubs and when they closed they worked passing trade, exactly as they do nowadays, they worked their own patches and they would have had their own places for doing the nasty. Hanbury street is a good example, the set up there is so obvious it's ridiculous.
James Tully related in "The secret of prisoner 1167" how the neighbours in Hanbury street got themselves a nice bit of business going charging the public money so they could gawp at the murder scene through an upstairs window, unpleasant perhaps, but these were harsh times and you made money whenever you could.
And yet, John Richardson knew the back yard was being used by prostitutes and he didn't want a piece of that? Wether there was an 'arrangement' that the girls worked the Black Swan and used his yard for a cut or wether he extorted money from them I couldnt say. The boot business god knows but the only part of his evidence I believe is the time he got there, maybe to get his cut from Annie or to wake her up for the morning pub trade , he got there before the pub opened though! I assume because any later and Annie would have spent it on drink. I'm speculating based on Elizabeth Longs evidence; she said they were speaking "quite loudly" ok they were speaking quite loudly so what? well, dont people who have had a drink tend to speak louder? anyway I'm just putting it out there.
Your insight into human nature provides the likelihood that Berner street was such a site, probably not involving the people who ran it but who knows? the blanket denial confirms it, the denial works for specific denial about Liz and the more general denial of what the yard was used for, and as you point out who needs the hassle? least said soonest mended. To state the obvious all that evidence that night is questionable to say the least.
Anyway I'm all rippered out, I have had a great post from Tom Westcott pointing out that three murder sites just 'happened' to be signicant sites of jewish industrial unrest/political agitation, (it's those bloody Fenians!) like you I am not big on conspiracies but I dont like coincidences either and they do keep adding up! He also mentions that man Kominski!
Trouble is this takes me into an area of research I have never thought about, I have been naive, of course the government arent just going to sit there and do nothing about it, but what they did and more importantly what Special Branch were up to at the time is something I am completley ignorant about, shades of 1868 maybe? so I have got a mountain of research to get through so its going to be a while until I post again, although I will probably check in to see how its going,, thanks to all for the fantastic support, I have only been posting 5 minutes and I have already got back 10 times more than I have put in, really very much appreciated, best regards martin

[corey123]

Martin,

You will soon find out, that alot of Ripperology is guesswork and speculation. Theres truly not enough of anything to put an end to this case. Its actually fairly possible to hypothesise a killers mindset by the clues in his murders.

Profiling, its interesting. We have made countless ripper profiles, even Dr.Thomas Bond in 1888 made a profile of the killer. If it was possible them, then it is possible now, required that you know your stuff and use the right profiling technich.

Yours truly