Did jack kill liz stride?

[c.d.]

Hi Phil,

But even if someone calling on Mary saw a fire and movement, what are they to think? That she is with someone and does not wish to be disturbed would seem to be the logical answer. I doubt if they thought "I wonder if she is in there being killed and mutilated by Jack the Ripper." He wouldn't have to respond to a knock on the door or someone calling her name. His biggest fear would be someone forcing the door open and I just can't see the likelihood of someone having a reason to do so.

c.d.

[The Good Michael]

If you mean my theory that the Ripper didn't want to get caught, I don't think that's so much theory as it is common sense, and I would hope it's logical.

No Tom, I'm referring to the specifics of always being close to an exit rather than secluded. I think you hit that one on the head; that if he tried to put himself into a more private area, he would be less likely to be seen, but if seen, less likely to get away. It makes me look at Tabram and at least MacKenzie in a different light, and after considering Kelly, it makes me look across the ocean to Carrie Brown, as if he has somehow developed his skills. Just musings, but interesting thinking.

Anyway, it was something I hadn't really looked at before. Thanks for that.

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Good Michael, c.d., et al,

I imagine the Ripper took precautions. Had someone came to Kelly's door or disturbed him at another site, he would have the advantage. He'd be prepared for them, but they wouldn't be prepared for him. I don't think he'd attack a man with his knife, but perhaps hit him over the head and run would be enough.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Good Michael]

it would light up through the curtains and shine through into the court...
Well, knowing Mary, have a peak through the curtains into this firelit room...Pitch black. That fire blazing away would light up the back courtyard. Just like a low bulb today. And guess what else would be perfectly visible looking through the curtains from the outside? MOVEMENT. Anyone's silhoutte that moved would be seen.

Phil,

Well, a fire wouldn't be out of place in Kelly's room if she had a habit of 'entertaining' on cold evenings, and I'm sure she did. As for a silhouette, I think the overcoats hanging over one of the windows, and I don't believe a man toward the far side of the room carving a woman, would have given a viewable silhouette to anyone who was walking by.

Mike

[perrymason]

A follow up to your questioning Mike.....of the Canonicals, which were killed within very few steps of a major street? I would assume that at some point he must have used more trafficked streets to leave a murder site and head home.

Annies murderer would need to run back through the house some 20 plus feet to access one,.. fine if he wasnt spotted by someone in that hall,... Kates murderer chose the darkest spot in an open area...its not clear whether that choice was made for possibly rapid egress since 3 exits were available to his knowledge...in reality, only the carriageway would allow him to escape both Harvey and Watkins unseen,... and Marys killer would need to enter a stone tunnel some 20 feet long to access Dorset Street, assuming he wasnt seen through the windows to the room....or from Dorset.

Liz and Polly were the only Canonical victims that were killed in a spot that could be seen via the major road, or by someone passing the gates looking slightly behind the left open gate. Like Goldstein is said to have done at approx 12:56am.

Since Polly is assumed to have been his first kill, it would be surprising for me to see him then return to an exposed location 2 murders later....since its possible that his antics were incomplete in that first kill..... at least thats in the opinion of Baxter and Phillips. Dutfields Yard was a good spot for pm mutilations, at least as good as Hanbury....and he didnt seem fussed about having so limited egress possibilities there. Nor in Millers Court.

But she wasnt killed in the yard. She was killed opposite the cottages and near an ajar club door in a passageway to the yard, just inside open gates leading in directly from the street. It would seem that it was an unlikely spot for mutilations....and that bears out in the evidence. There were none.

Wess, Lave, Eagle and finally Louis were all standing by that murder site within Liz Strides last 45 minutes. And thats all we know about.

Regards

[Phil Carter]

Hello Mike,

In all possibility, yes...cold night, light the fire etc etc...but she was penniless! She hadn't enough for food, let alone for warmth. She spends all her money on drink. She didn't have any clothes to speak of either. How many undergarments would a person posess at any one time? Even if one was dirt poor? So, I am not sure she did a lot of fireside entertaining.

Plus another thing...there weren't any boxes of matches found in the room... so Jack nicked them too did he?

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil,

But even if someone calling on Mary saw a fire and movement, what are they to think? That she is with someone and does not wish to be disturbed would seem to be the logical answer. I doubt if they thought "I wonder if she is in there being killed and mutilated by Jack the Ripper." He wouldn't have to respond to a knock on the door or someone calling her name. His biggest fear would be someone forcing the door open and I just can't see the likelihood of someone having a reason to do so.

c.d.

Hello c.d.,

Yes, again. all very logical. In all normal circs, I would agree. But none of this IS normal.

The firelight through the curtains is a bit strange... didn't those who lived opposite the back of the court say they saw and heard nothing?... They didn't even notice a firelight from the room.

I may be mistaken here, so apologies in advance if I am wrong.

best wishes

Phil

[DVV]

Hi Phil,

seems the end of this Liz thread.
Mary won the match(es).

Amitiés,
David

[Phil Carter]

Sorry Dave,

I beg your pardon...back to Liz. Game set and match.

best wishes

Phil

[DVV]

So I'm not allowed anything about the matches...?
Too bad.
I would have said there's nothing useful like matches.
No wonder Jack took them.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[c.d.]

Hi Phil,

I am not sure that I am getting your point. Who do you think was going to come bursting through the door? And wasn't Mary's bed right next to the door? Had I been Jack, I would have simply pushed the end of the bed against the door or found some other means to block it.

c.d.

[Hunter]

Hi Everyone,

Since this is a Stride thread and should be kept in that realm, I would only say that matches would be easily overlooked in an inventory of a room. Things were thrown into the fireplace; maybe the matches as well. Even the poorest of tenants were usually able to keep a fire going in cold weather. A bucket of coal burns hot and slow for a long time.

To the point that the murderer chose his locations to carry out his deed; the victims, if one believes that they were soliciting, initially chose the spot- be it a street, alley or their room. Once there, the murderer had the option to accept the location or not. How many times this may have happened, we don't know, or, if he did decide not to carry out an attack, how he would have broken off the engagement without arousing suspicion. By their nature, prostitutes may have been reluctant to report anything. Out of all of the canonicals and Tabram's murder as well, I don't see any of the locations more dangerous for the killer than the other; nor do I see any of them unlikely spots for a prostitute to take a customer- including Dutfields Yard.

If we are looking at a serial killer, it is the commonality of the victims and their behaviour that is relative, first; The way the victims were initially dispatched, second; subsequent damage to the body, last- even though that may be the ultimate goal of the perpetrator. The sequence of events have to follow that order. Obviously, with Liz, the third part didn't happen, but the first two did. Is that enough to connect her's with the other crimes?

[DVV]

Virtually all of the reasons people think Stride was not a Ripper victim are myths, from Michael Kidney's abusiveness, to his locking her in the room, to Schwartz, to the 'different' knife.
Tom Wescott

I love that, Tom.
But what do you mean exactly with Schwartz ?
BSM and Sailor Man could be one and the same, after all.

Amitiés,
David

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi DVV,

I mean two things: 1) Schwartz may have been the George Hutchinson of Berner Street, and 2) It's erroneously thought that BS Man was not acting in a way that 'our Jack' would have behaved. Albert Cadosch's 'ear witness' testimony could almost have been an 'ear witness' to the Schwartz incident, sans 'Lipski!'.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Why is it assumed matches were not found in Kelly's room? Do one of you have the inventory list?

[Hunter]

myths

Hey Tom,

We're the ones promulgating myths. Just check out the Kelly thread.