Did jack kill liz stride?

[harry]

Constable Henry Lamb,giving evidence in Stride's murder,stated her clothing had not been disturbed.In fact only the soles of her boots were visible.It might be deduced from that evidence that apart from the hands and neck upwards,long clothing covered the body.This could have prevented the knees and backside from coming into direct contact with the ground when falling? outside the gates.Long clothing seems the fashion of that period.

[corey123]

The question we should be asking is why wasn't her backside or at least her knees dirty if Schwartz was telling the truth about seeing someone push her down.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,

That is a good question.

Yours truly

[corey123]

Poll UPDATE

As far as the Poll is concerned, The majority vote is that stride is a ripper victim, I repeat that Stride is a Ripper victim.

New votes are welcom.

Yours truly

[Hunter]

Constable Henry Lamb,giving evidence in Stride's murder,stated her clothing had not been disturbed.In fact only the soles of her boots were visible.It might be deduced from that evidence that apart from the hands and neck upwards,long clothing covered the body.This could have prevented the knees and backside from coming into direct contact with the ground when falling? outside the gates.Long clothing seems the fashion of that period.

Pc Lamb also stated that she looked as if she was gently layed down- far from any suggestion that she was dragged. While women did wear long dresses and even layers of clothes- especially street prostitutes- there still would have been contact points on the clothes in relation to the parts of the body that struck the ground. If she had been dragged I believe she would have not been on her side, but on her back and she would have been found that way. And I doubt that the cachous would still have been in her hand.

One note about Liz's death that is often overlooked is the fact that it rained until about 12:30 but her clothes were dry, except what was in contact with the ground. She had to have been inside somewhere(a pub,the club ,maybe?) during the rain, but outside of Best and Garner no one came forward to claim she had been seen inside- probably just the see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil rule of the street.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[harry]

Hunter,
That Stride was gently laid down,as evidenced by Lamb,and killed at that particular spot as stated by the doctors in attendance,seem beyond dispute.I however, also accept Maxwell,s statement that she could have had the scarf pulled from behind,and killed in a semi upright position,and it's not beyond expectation that she was dragged in an upright position,the short distance from the entrance to where she was found.The reason I believe it to be a Ripper killing,is that in my opinion,it was never neccessary to take her further inside the yard than the gate,unless there was an intention to do something more.
Whatever way it went,there are problems in reconstructing events,but no harm in trying.
Regards.

[Jon Guy]

That is a good question.

Corey

She was thrown down on her left side inside the gates, where she was found, and her throat was cut.

[corey123]

Jon,

Thanks for that information. Well appriciated.

Yours truly

[Hunter]

Hunter,
The reason I believe it to be a Ripper killing,is that in my opinion,it was never neccessary to take her further inside the yard than the gate,unless there was an intention to do something more.

Hello Harry,

The intention to do something more was probably in Liz's mind- given her profession. The part of Dutfields Yard near the gate was the darkest area and despite the claims of the club members that no illicit activities took place there, the neighbors had a different opinion.

If it was the Ripper, I don't think he got into slinging or dragging victims around. He waited until the victim took him to her spot for business, then attacked swiftly.

[harry]

Hunter,
More better her suggestion to go further into the yard,if that was his intention anyway.While I agree generally with your saying no dragging was evident with the victims,I believe if the killer felt it neccessary to drag,he would have done so.In Strides case it would have been more a carry than a drag,for just a short distance.Not to say I am adamant that happened,I think it is a possibility.
Regards.

[Sox]

The part of Dutfields Yard near the gate was the darkest area

Actually Hunter that is not so. Stride was found just to the right side of the buildings side entrance....and not behind the open gate as you seem to think. It would hardly have been the darkest, or most 'private', spot in Dutfields yard.

If there is to be a case against Liz Stride being a Ripper victim, then the spot where she was killed is it. Mrs Diemschutz, at least, was just behind that side door, people could be heard singing and the gates were wide open. To kill her in that spot would take seconds, but to mutilate her there would have presented the highest risk of any of the C5 murder sites. Someone could have walked out of that door at any time, putting them right beside the killer and his victim.

Chapman & Eddowes were seen supposedly negotiating a deal just before they died, is this what Liz was doing just inside Dutfields yard? And did she perhaps, before the deal was done and they moved further into the yard, realise that she was in trouble? Is that why she died where she did?

Speculation of course, but worth considering in my opinion.

[Tom_Wescott]

If there is to be a case against Liz Stride being a Ripper victim, then the spot where she was killed is it.

I would disagree. Dutfield's Yard is very similar to 29 Hanbury Street where the victim was killed just inside the yard entrance overlooked by no less than 17 individuals sleeping and waking up outside. The Ripper would have heard Cadosch moving in and out of the house next door and, indeed, would have seen him through the many breaks in the fence. This and the coming light didn't deter him.

The only true argument for county Stride out is the fact that she was not mutilated and her neck would doesn't appear as severe, though certainly severe enough to have served its purpose.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Sox, you make some valid points. She may have sensed something was wrong and what transpired may have triggered her killer to strike without forethought as to where he was.

Most of these prostitutes made their deals on the open street- kinda like billboard advertising - "here I Am". They usually didn't go too far to complete the transaction- we can look at where the others were last seen and where they were killed. Stride seemed to work the Commercial Street area, concentrating on the pubs ( Bricklayer's Arms). She may have wanted to look her best , not for a date, but so the pub owners wouldn't harrass her for soliciting. She probably moved into Berner Street after the pubs had closed, knowing about the meeting night at the club. Because it had rained from about 9:30 until about 12:30 her luck may not have been so good for outdoor business. She was found with her clothes dry.

I take witness statements with a grain of salt, but I do believe that PC Smith saw Liz talking to a man across the street from the club at 12:35. It had stopped raining by then. Even if Schwartz saw her being accousted by a drunk passing by, she was used to this behaviour and stayed near the open street for protection until he left. We know that a couple of club members claimed that they were out in the yard during that time but saw nothing. they also said that they had never seen LIz before and that the Yard wasn't used for "business". They were obviously lying because the neighbors told reporters a different story.

Anyway, she met her killer and took him just inside the gate. Whether she intended to do business there, or maybe the abandoned stable farther back, I do not know. It was dark enough there that Diemshutz didn't see her later. The way the lights from the tenaments and the printing office were situated, it was better lit father back. She may have assumed that the side door would not be used after the meeting had closed. She might not have even cared. I found a London police report from that time that was a complaint by a man who was protesting prostitutes doing business against a rail just outside his door. He made the City install a street light by his house to stop the activity.

Dutfields Yard was only 9 feet across at the entrance, opening up to 12 feet about halfway back. The buildings, being so close, cast a shadow there all of the time other than around noon. As Tom said it was just as secluded as the other locations. Maybe this once, the killer's luck didn't pay off for whatever reason that we will never know. Or, maybe 2 prostitutes had their throats cut, from left to right, on the same night, in the same area, for no apparent reason by 2 different murderers and neither was caught.

[Tom_Wescott]

If PC Smith got a good look at Stride then it stands to reason she saw herself being watched by a constable. If not, she'd be the first prostitute to not notice a cop standing a few feet from her. Therefore, she may have been hiding inside the gates to avoid being seen by anyone she didn't want to see her, such as cops. Of course, we're assuming she was standing alone in the yard based solely on Schwartz's testimony.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sox]

Hiya Tom, Hunter....

What I meant about the yard is this: The spot where Nichols, Chapman, & Eddowes bodies were found I consider to be viable, as far as a prostitute & client having sex is concerned. Chapman & Eddowes are seen, presumably negotiating with a client, very close to the spot where they died. So a fair assumption is that they did the deal, and then led the client to a place of their own choosing. So I work on the premise that these three victims died at the very last moment, the couple had reached the point where they were ready to have sex.

This scenario however, does not work for me in Liz Strides case. The spot where Liz was found, in my opinion, was not a viable location for a prostitute to service her client. If the gates had been closed yes, further back in the yard yes, even over the other side of the yard then yes. But next to the side entrance of the club, when people could clearly be heard singing inside?

I agree that the back yard of No29 was a high risk, all the murder sites were. But in the case of No29 it was a fair assumption that everyone would still be sleeping, and it was quiet at least. In the other three cases our killer strikes, I think, when he is happy that he will have a reasonable chance, not to kill, but to mutilate his victim. I simply do not see this in Strides case.

It is possible, of course, that the killer made a mistake....enter Diemschutz... but I think it more likely that he had to kill her, maybe she had some small inkling of what was happening, of just exactly who she was in that yard with, and he panicked.

[DVV]

It hurts me to say so, but this post is excellent.

Amitiés,
David