Did jack kill liz stride?

[Sox]

Hello again Hunter It was quite strange you posted this, as you did I was working on a map charting Strides movements from midnight onwards. (my original had gone missing)

MY question is this: Charting her movements on a map it looks as if she may well have had a destination in mind, as she keeps on moving up Berner Street. I would have thought, had she been soliciting that night, that her movements would have been more erratic, up and down?

Of course, we can only chart her movements based off sightings, and there is a thirty minute gap where we do not know where she was, but still. I also find it odd that so many key witnesses did not see her.

I am quite the fan of connections, tentative or otherwise. The connection for me in Strides case is that she often worked for Jews, and that she is killed next door to a club holding a meeting for Jewish socialists.

I have always imagined a cheerful Liz Stride winding her way up Berner Street after a good night out, because of some of the comments attributed to her, & those men seen with her, I tend to think that she was going somewhere, as opposed to soliciting. Was she made an offer that she found too tempting to refuse, is that how she wound up dead in Dutfields Yard?

[Hunter]

Don't know Sox.

That's why I thought we would try to start again, at what's pertinent first.
If Liz was soliciting that night- that is if- she would have worked in a territory that didn't compete with others- at least no more than she had to. It would have centered around public locations. As we know the pubs usually closed at twelve, to gravitate towards the IMEC- which had people there after hours would seem practical. I admit I place little creedence in witnesses but I would rely on PC Smith who saw Liz at 12:35 in front of the club talking to the man with the parcel. It had been raining much of the night and by 12:30 she may have been a little despondent about her circumstances- and maybe a little careless- I don't really know.

I look forward to you map.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[Observer]

HI Sox

He says he thinks the killer grabbed her by the scarf from the back which would not, repeat not, tighten it. Try it for yourselves. Tie a piece of cloth around a broom handle, making sure to fasten it with a tight bow but leaving it loose enough to slide up and down the handle.....pull it from the back and see...voila, the scarf does not get tighter around the pole because the bow keeps it constant.

Tried the above experiment in my mothers kitchen, trouble is she walked in and caught me just as I was pulling it back, somehow I don't think she will view me in the same light in future.

all the best

Observer

[Observer]

P S

The fact that I'd put one of her wigs on the tip of the broom didn't help

all the best

Observer

[c.d.]

P S

The fact that I'd put one of her wigs on the tip of the broom didn't help

all the best

Observer

I know what you mean. I've tried that too on some lonely nights.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

The Scarf, The Knife, & Perhaps A Few Answers

Some sensible posts all around. Let's hope I don't screw that up.

Sox and Observer,

I've wrestled over the matter of the scarf for years. If you ever read back old posts of mine, you'll see me me positing different theories about it, but I've decided in my own mind that the only practical reason Stride's killer would have had for tightening the scarf would be to cut her throat. I base this conclusion on the following -

* The wound ran along the edges of the scarf and did not deviate, which tells us the killer was holding the scarf tight in this position as he cut her throat, not as he was dragging her.

* The mud evidence and the condition of her clothing suggest that she was not dragged at all, as there would have been more mud on her clothing, which would have appeared in more disarray.

* Stride was laid down on her left side, with her neck over the jagged stones of the make-shift gutter. The doctors noted at the time that this position would have made it difficult to get a long-bladed knife underneath her to cut her throat.

* The knot was turned to the left side and pulled tight, which is consistent with the killer having pulled up on the scarf in order to raise her neck above the stones and cut her throat. That he had to do so would mean he did not have a short-bladed knife.

* Given the unique circumstances of this murder, these additional obstructions might account for why her wound was not as deep as with the other victims. It is by no means necessary to conclude that a different hand or knife is present in this murder than the murder of Eddowes 45 minutes later.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to determine to my own satisfaction how the killer managed to maneuver Stride quietly to the ground without strangulation, choking, poison, or blunt force trauma. The best I can suggest is that she fainted. As unsatisfactory an answer as it might seem, it might be the only viable possibility.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

fainted

Hello Tom,

Fainted, hmm.

I wonder if the scarf would have hidden any pressure marks of stragulation by hand as oppossed to the bare neck. PC lamb stated that she appeared as if she was gently layed down. Her mouth was slightly open as was Tabram, Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes - could be a reflexive act of gasping for air or the relaxing of the jaw muscles in death.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Hunter. The doctors could determine if a person was strangled by more than just looking for marks on the neck and it appears no such signs were found. Also, it's rather difficult to strangle someone and takes more time than you might think. During this time, there would certainly be a struggle, and it was clear to the investigators that no struggle took place. Believe me, I wish that weren't the case because it would be much easier to explain. But it seems that while standing, she was somehow rendered unconscious. I don't buy the 'Vulcan neck pinch' idea, so at this point I favor fainting, although I'd be lying if I said I was completely satisfied with this explanation.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Vulcan choke hold

Now Tom I've seen those professional "wrasslers" subdue their opponents with the same hold that Spock used and you know that's all real

Seriously though, the greatest mystery to me- and many others- has been how the murderer of all of the women who were killed outdoors was able to sudue the victims so quickly- Stride's murder being the most pronounced because of the cachous and the evidence that no apparent struggle took place.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Hunter,

It's good to see this thread back on topic again. The question is 'Did Jack Kill Liz Stride'? To get at the answer, we have to understand why some think she was not Jack's victim. The most common and logical points are:

* Stride was not mutilated.
* The wound to her neck was not as deep and severe as the other victims.

These are pretty significant difference, it must be said. Other arguments against her inclusion are far more contentious, such as the geography of the killing or the fact that it occurred in a yard where people were clearly awake and moving about. I didn't include these in the list because I feel it's impossible for someone to say that the geography of the murder would be out of keeping with the killer since he has not been identified. As for the location of the murder, Dutfield's Yard had more in common with the previous murder in Hanbury Stree than any of the other crime scenes.

As for the two points highlighted above, I've already shown how the difference in her wound is quite easily explained by the crime scene evidence. As for why she wasn't mutilated, there are endless explanations, most as good as the other. I personally don't subscribe to the notion that Jack was a super invisible killer, therefore I'm accepting of the fact that some things might not have gone as planned. There's also the very real possibility he planned in advance to kill two women that night and therefore chose not to mutilate the first, so he could assure he'd remain bloodstain free in searching for his second victim.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[harry]

I fail to see why more mud had to be on the clothing if she had been dragged.If she was in a partially upright position,only the heels of the shoes need to have been in contact with the ground,and there would not need to be a serious dissarangement of the clothing when she was lowered to the ground.Drag marks would have been obliterated by the numerous persons that later crowded the yard.

[Hunter]

DRagged

I fail to see why more mud had to be on the clothing if she had been dragged.If she was in a partially upright position,only the heels of the shoes need to have been in contact with the ground,and there would not need to be a serious dissarangement of the clothing when she was lowered to the ground.Drag marks would have been obliterated by the numerous persons that later crowded the yard.

Hello Harry,

Good Points. Do you think that she would still be holding to cachous if she was dragged?.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[Sam Flynn]

Good Points. Do you think that she would still be holding to cachous if she was dragged?

... no, 'cos then she'd have been holding dragées

[pr1mate]

"Could" being the operative word, Dave - like he could have been a one-off murderer or manslaughter who decided to cut a throat in the heat of the moment. Throat cutting is not so unusual... unlike mutilation, which is comparatively rare, and certainly not like disembowelment and organ removal, which are very rare.

Do you take into account the rarity of 2 prostitutes being killed in a similar way on the same night and in a relatively close proximity?

[corey123]

Well,

Tha rarity is enormous. However, they were not similar besides both their throats had been cut, and the proximity of their locations.