Did jack kill liz stride?

[DVV]

The cachous...
Nightmare.


Amitiés all

[Sox]

But does it do justice to the cachous?

The million dollar question Lynn and, for me, the one thing that casts a rather large shadow upon upon the Schwartz statement. Nice piece of writing Hunter and I am with you up until....

I imagine Liz in her final moments looking at her suitor-hoping for a kind word. He may have placed his fingers behind the rose and fern adorning her lapel and told her how nice she looked with them. He might have placed them there. She clutches the cachous as if self conscious about her missing teeth. Teeth that were likely knocked out in a brawl than by a deck hand on the "Princess Alice". Its late and has been raining. The dampness is cold. The night hasn't gone as she'd planned and her doss money is spent. She hasn't even had enough to drink to numb the damp chill... but he reassures her- maybe even kisses her. She reluctantly covers her face and smiles. There's been little love in her life in recent years. Michael Kidney may have offered some security at times, but they usually just shared a drink and a bed. They had both come down the same road and it had left them hardened and distant. Her companion may be temporary, but everyone in her life has been. She's used to it. She sees in him only hope for the moment... but the moment is enough.

....and it might well be that we are being a tad 'romantic' here, but somehow I do not think so. Something about the cachous has always bothered me, especially if we go along with the Schwartz version. Why, after being assaulted, is this woman freshening her breath? I think that this killer prompted almost exactly the response from these women that Hunter so hauntingly writes, a reaction that could make Liz Stride self conscious enough to allow him a kiss, surely not the normal kind of request put to her on the streets of the East End.

Perhaps the same kind of thing had Polly removing her bonnet to smooth out her hair, or had Kate running her hand up his chest, or prompted Mary to invite him home.....perhaps this man was, in some way, a cut above the usual kind of man that these women were used to?

[lynn cates]

observation

Hello Sox.

"The million dollar question Lynn and, for me, the one thing that casts a rather large shadow upon the Schwartz statement."

Well spoke, mate.

"perhaps this man was, in some way, a [CUT] above the usual kind of man that these women were used to?"

Yes, this chap was a CUT above. [Sorry. Looks like a New Year's resolution not to make silly puns has already taken a hit.]

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

a cut above

Hello everyone,

"a cut above" thats a good one.

Of course my scenerio was conjecture- everything outside of hard evidence is. Speculation is a good part of what we do here.

I placed the killer pulling Liz down by the shoulders because the physical evidence showed bruises or pressure marks there, which could have been made some other way. It would have been just as likely that he grabbed her bow by his left hand and pulled her down- the scarf acting like a noose that wouldn't leave strangulation marks like the hand would but, nevertheless, render her unable to scream.

I had him standing behind her because that was the way most street prostitutes serviced their clients. She would pick him up outside a public house or a mens club ( yes maybe that one). After a mutual ageement she would probably "tease" him( for lack of a better term). One only has to look at some of the witness testimony to see that this was common. When she thought that he was ready- and she would know- she would quickly take him to the nearest secluded spot to consumate the act. It must be noted that total privacy would be near impossible in a crowded metropolis like the East End... and behind the gate at Dutfields yard was just as secluded as Bucks Row, 29 Hanbury St or Mitre Square.

As you know, she would have serviced him standing up- not just because lying in the street was filthy but because that position would have compromised both of them if they happened to be discovered- as they sometimes were. People there were used to seeing such encounters and would usually go about there own business. She would have him perform the act from behind as this was less awkward for her. There didn't have to be penetration- in the usual sense. She would simply tighten her thigh muscles. It solved the problem of pregnancy and venereal desease. Because her clients were usually young the act itself wouldn't have taken very long. Afterwards she would clean herself with a piece of cloth from her pocket ( an inventory of the victims possesions described several of these), then they would go their seperate ways, leaving her to repeat the process until she had enough money for drink, food or lodging.

I apologize for being a bit graphic, but it is essential when understanding how these women were so vulnerable. From behind the attacker could subdue her quickly and strangle her into unconsiousness. She couldn't defend herself as easily as she could when facing him. All he had to do was pull her backwards if she tried- throwing her off balance. Usually being intoxicated didn't help her much either.

Now what is unusual about LIz Stride, compared to the others, is not so much the location as it is that she seemed to be sober. She may have turned out to be a handful. That may account for why she didn't appear to be strangled by her killer's hands, or maybe the scarf was a handy tool. As was posted earlier, the cachous still in her hand after death suggest that the attack was sudden and unexpected- from behind. This does not suggest an argument or altercation- no matter what Schwartz sad he saw. Whoever he was I believe he meant to kill her all along.

Best wishes,
Hunter

[lynn cates]

take down

Hello Hunter.

"It would have been just as likely that he grabbed her bow by his left hand and pulled her down- the scarf acting like a noose that wouldn't leave strangulation marks like the hand would but, nevertheless, render her unable to scream."

Completely agreed.

The problem with the solicitation is that if she had led her assailant into the yard, she would need to turn towards him when she feels the proper place had been reached. But now, are they not face to face? And you are right that he needs to be behind her.

But what if she had NOT turned and he were behind as both faced West? Then a sudden take down would have left her body 180 degrees inverted.

Suggestion: what would have happened if the assailant came out through the kitchen door as Liz faced East, and took her down then?

The best.
LC

[DVV]

Because her clients were usually young the act itself wouldn't have taken very long.

Hunter

Any youth around ?

Amitiés Hunter, best wishes,
David

[Archaic]

The BIG Question

But does it do justice to the cachous?

Oh, Lynn...

I just pictured you being welcomed into Heaven some day,
and God puts His big arm around your shoulder and kindly explains to you The True Meaning of Life,
Why You Were Born, Why He Made The Universe...


and you say, "Yes, but- the cachous???"



Don't worry, my list of just-gotta-know-the-answer questions is much longer!

Happy New Year,
B.

[Hunter]

Hello Hunter

The problem with the solicitation is that if she had led her assailant into the yard, she would need to turn towards him when she feels the proper place had been reached. But now, are they not face to face? And you are right that he needs to be behind her.

But what if she had NOT turned and he were behind as both faced West? Then a sudden take down would have left her body 180 degrees inverted.

Suggestion: what would have happened if the assailant came out through the kitchen door as Liz faced East, and took her down then?

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

If Liz did take someone in the yard for "business" the likely place would be behind the gate because that was the darkest part of the yard and the gate itself would have provided some seclusion. With him behind her they could be facing east or southeast because they might have thought that an interuption would come from the street instead of the side door. Its unlikely that a murderer would come from the side door and suddenly attack her because he would have had to know she was there.. and why would she be there behind the gate in the dark by herself?

Best Wishes.
Hunter

[lynn cates]

dam

Hello Archaic. Splendid! But that may be question number 2. First, I'd like to know what Tony Harnishfeger and his girlfriend were doing at St. Francis Dam 45 minutes before it failed on March 12, 1928, at 11:57:30 PM. Does one just stand watching a failing dam for 45 minutes? (Oops! This more difficult mystery is from a former life.)

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

reconstruction

Hello Hunter.

"With him behind her they could be facing east or southeast because they might have thought that an inter[r]uption would come from the street instead of the side door."

Alright. But take down could NOT have occurred in this direction. (See why?)

"Its unlikely that a murderer would come from the side door and suddenly attack her because he would have had to know she was there."

Indeed. I used to dismiss this option. Not any more.

"[W]hy would she be there behind the gate in the dark by herself?"

Behind the gate? Close. She would be 18 feet away, at the door, waiting for someone. He appears, they walk a few steps, she takes out the cachous, he strikes.

The best.
LC

[Hunter]

Hello Hunter.


"[W]hy would she be there behind the gate in the dark by herself?"

Behind the gate? Close. She would be 18 feet away, at the door, waiting for someone. He appears, they walk a few steps, she takes out the cachous, he strikes.

The best.
LC

That certainly is a possibility Lynn. I thought most murders that are not a result of an argument or theft usually require the killer to interact with his victim for some period of time ( to get his nerve up, so to speak) but that could be an unrealistic assumption on my part.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[lynn cates]

reply

Hello Hunter.

"I thought most murders that are not a result of an argument or theft usually require the killer to interact with his victim for some period of time ( to get his nerve up, so to speak) but that could be an unrealistic assumption on my part."

Not unrealistic at all. What if either he knew her OR he knew, and were in league with, the man she had earlier been in company with?

The best.
LC

[Natalie Severn]

Hunter,
She could have been behind the gate hiding from someone.James Brown saw a man and a woman talking near the board school[opposite the club ]at 12.45 .The man had one arm resting on the wall.This was about 5 minutes or 10 minutes at most before her murder.Brown gave evidence at the inquest and said she was saying to the man she was with,"No,not tonight,some other night". So perhaps she thought she had got rid of him and ducked into Dutfields Yard to avoid him seeing her.

[perrymason]

Hello all,

As Lynn has pointed out there is really no obstacle that could have prevented Liz Strides killer from coming up from behind her using the side door...nor is there any reason he could have re-entered the Club after using that same door and exited via the door facing Berner, the one Eagle said was locked at 12:40am. He could have dropped his knife in the soapy sink water in the kitchen and returned upstairs to sing with his chums.

What is an obstacle to this theory is a motive for killing Liz Stride. Why would someone from the Club come outside to kill her....unless he was Jack, and if he was Jack and in the club he would have heard Eagle enter and say he saw the yard was empty, had he gone out to kill her then he couldnt have been interrupted logically because he would have ample time to mutilate Liz just like Kate at least....because that would mean he has more available time in Dutfields Yard than in Mire Square. Based on the premise that Kate was seen with her killer by Lawende...of course.

So...if it was Jack...why is she just dead, not mutilated,...we have witnesses that suggest no-one was in front of the gates at around 12:45am....by Brown and Fanny, she was probably already in the yard we hear was empty at 12:40, 20 minutes is a lot of cutting time for Jack the Ripper..... she isnt found supposedly until 1am... and if she wasnt killed by Jack, why would she be killed at all?

Heres one way......she sees Eagle arrive and enters the yard with him to wait in the yard.... low men are likely in the yard too despite Eagle and Laves assurances it was empty, ...(why would that night be different from their normal routines which include men in the yard until after 1am)...see neighbors.

A low man sees them enter, sees Eagle go inside....and assumes that Liz is being "hired" by Morris, not about to be on date with him, so the low man figures he might slip her a few pennies for some attention while her client is upstairs. He hits on her to come back into the darker yard with him while Eagle is inside, she demurs....he gets a little miffed being turned down by a woman he thinks is prostituting herself, ...whats so repulsive about me, he thinks,....you bitch, as he pokes her in the chest....(see bruises)....she senses this may be a bad situation soon, so she says something derogatory to him, being the seasoned street woman she is....(for some 20 years), and turns her back to head out the gates and is suddenly being choked from behind with her scarf. In 2 seconds she is lying on the ground on her side and dies in that position.

Would a thug get angry being rejected by a woman who sometimes can be bought for pennies by anyone walking by... when he feels he has been insulted,...or rejected by someone he feels is lower on society's scale than himself?

Would Eagle then tumble "pell-mell" down the stairs to see this dead woman despite his fear of blood?
Would the club then have a reason to try and suggest the killer was from off their own property....(see Israel)?

If Jack didnt kill Liz Stride, which it appears is the case by the physical evidence alone, then someone else did. Someone who may not have dark desires to kill any woman, or mutilate them afterward. Someone perhaps that is used to violence in their life...hence the knife thats on them at the time....but not a random murderer, like Jack supposedly is.

If you find a woman dead for no apparent reason you might have a killer who kills impulsively like Jack, but the murder lacks all the traditional Ripper signs...including that he doesnt even use a knife until the victims are physically dominated and lying down....if Liz was killed in a brief fit of anger, which the physical evidence does suggest, then all you need is a reason for her killer to vent physically on her.

Insulting a hard core biker might be similar.....what do you think would happen to a woman who was a part time prostitute and while out on the street late at night waiting for a date, she meets a biker among other bikers who tells her she is coming with him for a few minutes....(see BSM), and in response she tells him to bugger off she isnt interested? Or that he smells bad?

All that is needed for Liz Stride to have been murdered is a thug with an ego and a knife and one insult by Liz.....a man who cuts internal organs out as take away isnt required....nor in evidence.

My best regards

[DVV]

Hi Mike,

an angry thug...?...killing like that...?
Very unlikely, imo.
No great struggle, no stabs, that's what I see.

Amitiés,
David