Did jack kill liz stride?

[Tom_Wescott]

You might know the answer to this Tom....Wess is reported to have been seen standing next to Dr Phillips while the yard investigation was taking places....by PC Lamb. Since he says he went home around 12:15am,....are you aware of anyone that was sent for him after the murder was discovered?

I'm not aware of this, but I'll try to check tonight when I get home. If Wess had been called back to the yard by the police, it would be in the role of interpreter. Or he may just have caught wind of it and came by, which is completely understandable as he was club secretary and seems to have been the overall leader.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Using that argument any woman who has ever dated a man can be accused of dating any man she talks to.

Best regards

Say what???

c.d.

[perrymason]

Say what???

c.d.

We cannot assume when we see Liz being with a man that it was a business arrangement cd, that was the point. We KNOW in fact that this woman liked men socially.....she would leave a steady one to take off for weeks or months to be with another one. She is single that same week...she worked that afternoon and earned her doss...which would allow her to go earn and drink away every penny she might make, just by leaving her 4d with the manager.

But what happens? She puts on her nice evening wear, as her friend states, she asks for a brush to clean her ankle length skirt, she leaves a swatch of fabric that obviously means something to her with that friend, stating that she should keep it until she returns, which will not be that night....in fact she didnt know when she would return. She leaves for the night....and later that same night, we see her now wearing a corsage of sorts and she has mints to freshen her mouth. And she is hanging around a Mens club with members still inside.

You might want to imagine that she did all that preparation so she could solicit sex from desperately poor Socialists that dont speak Engish for the most part...one wonders why since she is found with no money and no pockets rifled why she hadnt had a single client to that time....the blood alcohol indicating she wasnt drunk....and its 12:45am with a reasonable expectation that the festivities might end soon....the meeting had been over since between 11 and 11:30.

There is more suggestive evidence that favours a date than there is soliciting...so why are we wasting time exploring the lesser of the 2 probable answers?

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

she would leave a steady one to take off for weeks or months to be with another one.

Not true. When she took off from Kidney it was apparently to stay at 32 Flower and Dean Street and indulge in her alcoholism, which required her prostituting herself.

the blood alcohol indicating she wasnt drunk

I'm no doctor, but I don't think they could test blood alcohol levels then. It was a more crude method such as check for alcohol in the stomach.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

I'm not aware of this, but I'll try to check tonight when I get home. If Wess had been called back to the yard by the police, it would be in the role of interpreter. Or he may just have caught wind of it and came by, which is completely understandable as he was club secretary and seems to have been the overall leader.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thanks Tom.

Since I now know Wess is really the founder there, he is the most senior man and should have been alerted. Thing is.....we have lockdown at around 1:10am...if anyone tried to leave or enter after that they would have had to have done so with Police permission. I would think that something like that would be noted by the officer watching the door....so and so left at so and so to get Wess...returned at so and so.

Best regards

[perrymason]

Not true. When she took off from Kidney it was apparently to stay at 32 Flower and Dean Street and indulge in her alcoholism, which required her prostituting herself.



I'm no doctor, but I don't think they could test blood alcohol levels then. It was a more crude method such as check for alcohol in the stomach.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Actually Tom Kidney himself suggests that she left him for other men at times, since in the same sentence he adds his remarks that he felt she "liked him better than any other man". We know of a few men in Liz's life, more it seems than we know the others past relationships...which what we do know of seems like semi long term relationships.

We know at the time of her death, she had left a semi long term relationship without even telling her partner... that same week....and here she is, dolled up on Saturday night.

Best regards

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

The problem is that Liz wasn't killed in the early part of the evening. So even if her appearance and actions at that point indicate that she was taking a night off, the fact remains that she (a known prostitute) was by herself on the street late at night when she was killed. As Yogi Berra so famously put it "it ain't over till its over." And as I pointed out, Liz had the option of soliciting or not solicting as she desired. So even though it might have been her intention to take a day off, she could simply change her mind. And even if she had her doss money, if it is the end of the night, why not make enough to stop for a few drinks before she heads for her bed? There is just way too many variables to say that Liz was not soliciting that night with absolute certainty.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Michael,

You're misinterrupting what Kidney's saying. Also, we have the evidence of the boarders at the lodging house. As for Stride prettying up, that likely was just her way. She was described as a very clean person, as was Mary Kelly. These two were used to having a regular address so it would make sense they'd be more apt to take better care of their appearance. Nichols acquired a new dress and a new (to her) bonnet in an effort to gain more clients, Stride asked to borrow a lint brush. I hardly call that evidence of a secret lover.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Michael,

You're misinterrupting what Kidney's saying. Also, we have the evidence of the boarders at the lodging house. As for Stride prettying up, that likely was just her way. She was described as a very clean person, as was Mary Kelly. These two were used to having a regular address so it would make sense they'd be more apt to take better care of their appearance. Nichols acquired a new dress and a new (to her) bonnet in an effort to gain more clients, Stride asked to borrow a lint brush. I hardly call that evidence of a secret lover.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Again, I only say that the evidence in total suggests her having a date more than it does her soliciting. Broke and at 12:40 should be the indicator...if she was working, she had been out since dinner, and in the company of a few men. Wheres the beef?

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

Again, I only say that the evidence in total suggests her having a date more than it does her soliciting.

A known prostitute trawling bars and seen with a different man every 40 minutes. That's my evidence she was prostituting. You evidence that she was on a date is a piece of green velvet and a romantic twinkle in your eye.

Broke and at 12:40 should be the indicator

She's broke because she was robbed, as was Chapman and the other victims.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

She's broke because she was robbed, as was Chapman and the other victims.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Ahh,...but is that in evidence as it clearly was in Annie's case? Liz was untouched from the moment she landed until Spooner arrives....supposedly....no pockets emptied, no contents strewn about her...no ripped skirt pocket.

I know you feel she may have been asked to empty her pockets, but we really have nothing as a basis for that in evidence. Only that she had no money on her. Her skirt was still down to her boot top.

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

My robbery theory offers the clearest explanation for why she had no money, why she (allegedly) didn't cry out, and why she was holding the cachous. And it fits like a glove with the other murders (sans Kelly).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

My robbery theory offers the clearest explanation for why she had no money, why she (allegedly) didn't cry out, and why she was holding the cachous. And it fits like a glove with the other murders (sans Kelly).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Not saying its a bad idea at all Tom, just that in the evidence there is no suggestion of it.

We dont know that Polly was robbed by the evidence, and we only know Kates pocket contents were spilled. We have no idea if anything other than a heart was taken from room 13...as you said. Annie is the ONLY clear robbery victim...as far as evidence goes.

My best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

Michael,

Your idea of what there is and isn't evidence of seems to be askew from the rest of us. Does that concern you at all?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Michael,

Your idea of what there is and isn't evidence of seems to be askew from the rest of us. Does that concern you at all?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,

There is no physical sign at all that Polly was robbed,...there is no sign that Kate was robbed, only that her pocket contents were strewn. There is no evidence or physical sign that anything was removed from room 13 other than a heart, and there is indeed evidence that Annie had rings wrenched from her finger, as well as having her skirt pocket cut open.

You have read the crime scene evidence, right?

Im amazed at comments like that Tom....unless you can tell me specifically what was taken from each woman based on the known contents of their pockets, jewelery they wore, or money they carried...I wouldnt be such a smart ass.

Best regards