Timings at Dutfields Yard-From The IWMA thread

[Guest]

Hi all,

A question came to me about the witness statements concerning their whereabouts and activities in the investigation of Liz Strides murder on the International Working Mens Association thread in General Discussion....rather than re-word my concerns, Ill just paste them again here....

"What troubles me is that If I were to imagine myself being questioned about something I did or saw, where I was at at the time in question and who I was with would be the basic framework I would imagine of the recollections I would provide. The simple answers....where were you, were you alone.....then would come....what did you see, or what did you do.

Isaac says in that statement that Louis called him into the yard at 12:40am....suggesting Louis is already in the yard with the dead woman and has not run in as yet to look for his wife or call some members for help....as both Eagle and Isaac are said to have responded when Louis says he entered at 1am.....Isaac also says that he was asked to go for help by Louis, not that he and Louis went out together, and he doesnt mention Spooner at all.

Spooner does mention 2 men......(but Isaac said he was alone....did Diemshitz then go with someone else?)...and he says near to 12:35-40 is when he enters the yard. That is declared to be an error on his part by most who heard it or read it. Because of course, Louis isnt even there until 1am..right?

Lets say for the sake of interest that a 5 minute error allowance of time is extended to each witness...but that no time can be before 12:35am when PC Smith sees Liz.....as far as Im concerned, he is the last trustworthy sighting.

Even with error allowances none of the above adds up to what Diemshutz himself says....the Club Steward.

Eagle says he comes into the yard at 12:40.....Lave says he went as far as to look out to the street from the gates between 12:30 and 12:40.....Isaac says Louis called him into the yard at 12:40.........If Spooner actually was off by 5 minutes too early then he is coming into the yard perhaps at 12:45ish...about how long it would take for the 2 men from the Club to have gone looking for a policeman and then return with Spooner.

Why doesnt any of this seem to start at 1am?
And how come people dont seem to know if they were alone or not, or who was with them?
How come Isaac K and Morris E and Joseph L and Louis D dont see each other at 12:40 by the gates?"

Both Spooners and Isaacs timings are dismissed as being incorrect, I believe due to the fact that Diemshitz statement suggests nothing transpired in terms of any discovery until 1am.

But....if taken at face value, Isaac and Spooners times do suggest they both felt the time that they were first aware that a woman lay dead inside the yard was at least 15 minutes before Diemshutz account says he discovered her. And when considering the time Spooner says he joined the 2 men and went into the yard with them, it allows for Isaac to have been correct and for Diemshitz to leave the yard with someone after Isaac had been sent out, to then meet Spooner and have him in the yard near 12:45ish.

Diemshitz says he and Isaac left for help...Isaac says Diemshitz sent him, and Isaac does not account for meeting anyone when he was out looking for help. Diemshitz says he and Isaac meet Spooner, Spooner says he met 2 men....sounds to me like Louis wasnt with Isaac at that time, but he did go seeking help with someone.

Does anyone have some thoughts as to how 2 witnesses, Isaac K and Spooner, could have stated that the body was discovered at around 12:40am? And how Isaac would remember that he was called into the yard at 12:40am by Louis if Louis didnt even arrive until 1am as he says? And why Diemshitz says he and Isaac went looking for help and Isaac says he was sent by Louis?

My very best Wishes to everyone for the Holidays!!!!

Best regards all

[lynn cates]

timing

Hello Mike. Well, the most obvious answer is that it took some time to rehearse the story.

Planning, planning, planning.

The best.
LC

[DVV]

Hi Mike and Lynn,

the problem with the Dutfield Yard's murder is that there are two many people involved within minutes. In such a case, things become confused, and rapidly inextricable. Especially timings.
The same is true with Annie Chapman. Who were at the crime scene after Davis? Who left? Who came back, and when? Etc.

Amitiés
David

[perrymason]

Hi David and Lynn,

I have a sympathetic ear for both of your points made,... but it does seem odd to me that Isaac and Spooner's approximate times given to the press seem to jive...and yet neither are thought to be correct.

If Isaac recalled correctly in his press interview, he is called by Louis at around 12:40am....Spooner says he thought that he met the 2 men.....Isaac says he was sent out alone....and entered the yard sometime near 25 to 1am. Obviously we have the Smith sighting at that time, so he couldnt have been correct if Smith did see Liz with someone....but if he was off just 5 or 6 minutes, then it works with Isaac's claim he was sent to find help around 12:40am.

No-one corroborates Israels statement, and other than Fanny saying she heard a cart near 1am, only Club witnesses corroberate Louis and his stated arrival time.

But if Isaac was correct on his time, the sound of the cart that Fanny heard could be it leaving the gates area to go to where he stabled them...which was not in Dutfields Yard.

She might have heard the cart leaving....not arriving.

My very best to the both of you for the Holidays....and my appreciation for the new friendships you both brought this year.

[DVV]

Mike,

for the sake of clarity, and since apparently there are several timings conflicting, you should perhaps treat them one by one.
Imho, the crucial witness is Schwartz.
I know he wasn't called at the inquest, but the police did believe him - and I believe him too. Such a pitiful story, once a murder has been committed, isn't easy to confess.
Schwartz ran, leaving a woman in a bad situation, then heard of a murder, and informed the police that...he could have saved her...
That's why I believe him.
As for the timing, there is an obvious problem.

My guess is that Schwartz entered Berner Street shortly after Fanny went indoors, and shortly before the arrival of Diemshitzshutz.

Amitiés mon collègue,
David

[perrymason]

Mike,

for the sake of clarity, and since apparently there are several timings conflicting, you should perhaps treat them one by one.
Imho, the crucial witness is Schwartz.
I know he wasn't called at the inquest, but the police did believe him - and I believe him too. Such a pitiful story, once a murder has been committed, isn't easy to confess.
Schwartz ran, leaving a woman in a bad situation, then heard of a murder, and informed the police that...he could have saved her...
That's why I believe him.
As for the timing, there is an obvious problem.

My guess is that Schwartz entered Berner Street shortly after Fanny went indoors, and shortly before the arrival of Diemshitzshutz.

Amitiés mon collègue,
David

Hi David,

In that fundamental area as far as this thread is concerned, I couldnt disagree more. I believe we have reason to question his stated reason for being there, I believe we have reason to question his story that suggests an off-site Gentile attacker of Liz just before she was murdered, I believe we have ample reason to suspect that he did not attend the Inquest and in that assumption reason to believe that his story was as the press suggested..."not wholly believed" by the police, I believe that the only evidence that police ever referred to his story in private correspondence after the fact is the "Lipski" element and the altercation itself is virtually unaddressed,...and I believe that there is good reason to surmise that Israel may in fact have been one of the many Jewish Socialist Immigrants that attended the meeting that night.

Wess may have translated for Schwartz at the police station, as he did for Goldstein a few days later. That would imply that they had some "affiliation"..since the only other translation Wess does is for a fellow Club member....

And there is a pervasive suggestion made in the remarks of Wess, Eagle and I believe one other witness.....maybe it was Lave...but both Eagle and Wess were asked directly if the body could have been there when they said they were also in the yard.....both, and as I said I believe also one other witness, said that "they couldnt be sure".

Since one man actually walked the path close to the club wall that she was found laying across, thats seems to be an unnecessary codicil.....surely he would have to have known whether he had to step over or bypass a body.

My thinking is that these witnesses knew that it was possible some story would be proffered from another witness there that suggested the body was lying there earlier than what they and Diemshitz were stating was the case.

In fact.....if thats the case, they made a wise choice....because as Ive indicated, we have 2 witnesses that spoke with the press that suggested that men were in the yard with a dead woman at least 15 minutes before Louis says he even arrives.

My best David

[DVV]

Mike,

I have too many objections...
Schwartz story is too complicated and confused. One drunk man. Another with a pipe. Were they together...?
That does not smell a concocted one.

Amitiés Mike,
David

[perrymason]

Mike,

I have too many objections...
Schwartz story is too complicated and confused. One drunk man. Another with a pipe. Were they together...?
That does not smell a concocted one.

Amitiés Mike,
David

When you add it all up......his story is I believe one reason Club people were not taken into custody and questioned long and hard later that day. They were interviewed that same night...the police left around 5-5:30am.....and some 12-14 hours later a man that no-one saw comes forward as states that he was just outside those gates at 12:45am....just after the last onsite club witnesses have said they were in the yard....and he says he was checking some 13 or 14 hours after the move began, to see if his wife had finished moving.

If this is that long after he left her, and the probability is that she had to move little or no furniture at all.....Why wouldn't he try to find his wife at the new address first?

When a murder is committed that is immediately pronounced as a Ripper crime by the immigrant Jew Anarchist Socialists in whose yard the murder occurred....and all of the witnesses to the state of the yard and the activities seen within are by immigrant Jew Anarchist Socialist club members...(excluding Israel at this point)....and suddenly a full 12 hours later that day another Immigrant Socialist Jew,..... not known to also be anarchist or a club member,.....comes in and gives his story that includes the ONLY Gentile we hear of anywhere near the gates, particularly within minutes of the murder.....and an assault on the soon to be victim that leads of course to speculation that he was her murderer.......you have to wonder at the amazing fortune for the Club in the form of Israel....based on the fact that until that time, the senior police believed that Jack the Ripper....the man that supposedly kills Liz.....was a immigrant Socialist Jew. Just like the men in the Club...and Israel himself.

Israel was a godsend based on that result.....but does his story make sense....all of it?

The answer is no. And no-one saw anything that he says he did.

My best again DVV

[DVV]

Mike,

what about the timing I've suggested above ?
That all happened within less than 10 minutes, perhaps 5 or 6 ?

Fanny goes indoors.
Israel passes by and runs.
X murders Liz.
Diemshitzshutz arrives.

Is that thread about timings, or are we back to the conspiration ?

J'attaque le bourgogne blanc en ton honneur,
Cheers!

[perrymason]

Mike,

what about the timing I've suggested above ?
That all happened within less than 10 minutes, perhaps 5 or 6 ?

Fanny goes indoors.
Israel passes by and runs.
X murders Liz.
Diemshitzshutz arrives.

Is that thread about timings, or are we back to the conspiration ?

J'attaque le bourgogne blanc en ton honneur,
Cheers!

Then why do we have 2 witnesses that told the press that they became knowledgeable about Strides death by 12:45am? You cant just dismiss them...at least I dont...their timings corroborate each other.

Who is it that corroborates Diemshutz on his arrival time? Fanny, by a horse and cart sound.....which as I suggested could have been the cart leaving, not arriving.

There are many accounts that differ here....there is a member by the name of Gillen I believe that said to to the press that he was the one that ran upstairs to tell everyone about the body....Diemshutz says he did so....Isaac says Diemshutz called him to the yard at 12:40 from inside the house. Isaac says he left the yard alone by Diemshutz request, Diemshutz says he left with Isaac after 1am, Isaac says he returned to the yard alone having seen no-one, Diemshutz says he and Isaac meet Spooner....Isaac doesnt mention Spooner...

There are many more examples....I have to do some shopping for company tonight....so Ill hold them for another go round later...

Joyeux Noel mon ami!!

[DVV]

Mike,

just write your sequence of events, why X or Y said that time, then, that other time, and the exact role of Schwartz story, etc, and as far as I've understood what you want to get at, well, I'm not sure it will work...

Amitiés, hope you enjoy,
David

[perrymason]

Mike,

just write your sequence of events, why X or Y said that time, then, that other time, and the exact role of Schwartz story, etc, and as far as I've understood what you want to get at, well, I'm not sure it will work...

Amitiés, hope you enjoy,
David

I told you David, for me Israel is the "W" in the "X's" and "Y's"...so if it doesnt work with his story thats probably a good thing.

My Best amigo

[DVV]

Ah, mon cher Mike,

so you found another escape from Dutfield Yard...?

Have I to remind you that this thread is yours?
Please, just test your cover-up/conspiration sequence of events. C'est VRAIMENT intéressant.

Amitiés,
D

[perrymason]

Ah, mon cher Mike,

so you found another escape from Dutfield Yard...?

Have I to remind you that this thread is yours?
Please, just test your cover-up/conspiration sequence of events. C'est VRAIMENT intéressant.

Amitiés,
D

Hi David,

I admit Im unclear of what you refer to....as Ive pointed out we have 2 witnesses that state they were in the yard with the body there at 12:40 and 12:45ish respectively....Eagle and Lave say they were in the yard at 12:40, with no-one and no body. Israel says that he saw Liz "fighting" at 12:45am outside the gates and alive....a direct contradiction to the early 2 men, and Diemshutz says he found the body that he called Isaac into the yard to see at 12:40 by Isaac's account, actually at around 1:01am.

Schwartz has no corroboration at all, no-one saw the people by the gate he did, not Brown or Fanny, and his cart heard by Fanny at near 1am could be leaving, not arriving.

Excluding Schwartz, the only people we have to rely on after 12:45am are Club members.....and if I may suggest specifically.....socialist anarchist immigrant Jews who were known and harassed by the met police regularly are not the witnesses Id prefer to have to lean on....particularly when as Immigrant European Jews and considering that a murder occurs on their property...they had every reason to lie.

The police at that time believed that Jack was a European Jew living in that area....as per Anderson.

What contrasting statements could you mean....again,....noticing that I do not use anything Schwartz says.

Best regards David.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Michael,

I'll keep this simple because it's Christmas Eve, I'm on my second egg nog and quite fancy a third.

Was Liz Stride dead at 1.00 am when found by Louis Diemschutz?

Regards,

Simon