Timings at Dutfields Yard-From The IWMA thread

[perrymason]

Certainly,

and it suggests a scenario that Mike should develop...
For the sake of discussion, let's admit that:

-Stride has been killed (and discovered) before 12:45
-Schwartz was a club member
-He never saw any BSM attack on Liz

That would suggest a third suspect for this murder, after Jack and Kidney.

Who?
Why?
In which way did Schwartz account help for a cover-up?
Why have two witnesses "confessed" that all happened before 12:45?

Amitiés,
David

YES....the part in bold is where Im going David, Bingo.......but not looked at in isolation, because the same man might figure in some way in another Whitechapel Murder. In my estimate all the man need be is a thug who is capable of violence and being angered.

When I see the absolute need for the Club to ensure that the police saw their "innocence", and I know these were people the police wanted to shut down before Strides death...and when she is killed so un-Jacklike.....it seems to fit together.

And Simon....thanks for adding eloquence and stability to the suggestions.

My best to all.

[perrymason]

I guess Davids concerns as to where I might be going with all this have hit home a bit, so Ill try to flesh out a complete idea thats based on the foundation that the Club fudged their stories to preserve the image of complete innocence.....

-In September of 88 The Whitechapel Murderer is thought by the Senior man on the ground, although on an ordered "rest" at the time of these murders, to be a European Immigrant Jewish man living in the East End near the murder sites with friends or relatives.
-We have a murder that requires only a killer with a knife and 2 seconds of time the last day of September.
-It happens inside a private yard owned by European Immigrant Jews who were thought by the police to have been anarchist socialists.
-Many were still in the club when this occurs
-Someone finds the woman lying on the ground across the path inside the yard between 12:40 and 1am
-The meeting that night housed some 200 active Socialists....and due to the very nature of the organizations anarchist reputation, likely there were some men that were used for crowd control and security.
-These men may be hired local goons and unaffiliated directly with the Club other than as employees on those nights. Le Grand might fit that kind of profile to mention one local man.
-They may be men to which committing a crime doesnt present a moral dilemma, perhaps even violent crime
-One of these men may have killed the street prostitute that was found in the yard simply because she insulted him, somewhat supported by the lack of any additional skills or knowledge that was needed to complete the act and the brevity and speed of the act. An emotional response by a man predisposed to violence,
-The act cannot be concealed, and has to be reported in short order to the Police
-The Police will of course under the circumstances and their leaders intuitions assume that its possible this is the place where the Immigrant Jew Whitechapel Murderer hangs out
-As the members who have arrived at the woman's death site from inside the club consider the best course of action, some of the members who were in the yard or saw whether anyone from outside the organization on the street could have seen what happened from 12:30 to 1am discover by exchanging their stories that no-one except club members were on the street or in the yard at that time.
-It is agreed that the best representation of their innocence starts with the yard being empty...so it suggests the killer came in the open gates from the street
-The men agree that this is best way to go and to support that in their statements, and begin to seek the police on the street, ensuring that they portray the crime as "another murder", implying this is one of a number of them
-The Thug may have been ushered off property immediately, or perhaps brought in the side door to wash him off then sent him out the front door with a hanky while the men gathered by the gates inside the yard
-Few of the men need lie directly.
-All will need to portray this as a non Club murder
-The Thug is either no longer used by the club or kept from it for a period of time
-The Club does this as a means of self preservation and protection, not to conceal the man, they were obligated by the location and circumstances to do so

The Final point.....the clear affiliations that existed between the radical fringe elements of Irish Self rule activists and Socialist anarchists allows some of this cover-up to be known among those various groups. Some are extreme radicals. Planning major terrorist actions. They see that in the story of the Berner Club concealment lies the probability that such crimes could be easily masqueraded as ones that had been happening recently due to the paranoia and the unpredictability of the killers habits based on that single throat cut and the automatic association with a bowel dissector, and that the street climate and the crowds and the angst and the tension were ripe for some meaningful actions "for the cause".

The people were now unified in their disgust and mistrust of the upper classes and their guards, the local police forces and particularly Warren, even moreso due to Trafalgar being less than a year before...

And these crimes were breaking the banks and draining the resources of that Society they wanted toppled.

The rest is likely self evident....some crimes in the series were not Ripper crimes but ones that utilized the climate he created.

I see a real madman, and some very dangerous men in the one Canonical Group.

Hope that answers what Im trying to piece together.

My best regards all.

[DVV]

Thank you Mike,

I've read it carefully but reserve my comments.
It's late.

Amitiés,
David

[Sox]

The act cannot be concealed, and has to be reported in short order to the Police

The act is concealed Mike, nobody see's Stride actually killed, and between 12:45 when Schwartz see's the assault and 01:00am when Diemschutz discovers the body there is a fifteen minute window when the killer, or killers, could easily have dragged Strides body further back into the yard. Hiding it they could simply have waited until all was quiet in the club, and then gone back to remove/dispose of it.

And just exactly how do you coerce two hundred plus people into silence over the brutal killing of a woman? Even given that every single one of them shares the same political belief (something we do not know, half of them could have been there for a drink and a sing song) this by no means that they all share the same lack of moral indignation over the slaying of a complete stranger, and a female one at that.

[perrymason]

The act cannot be concealed, and has to be reported in short order to the Police

The act is concealed Mike, nobody see's Stride actually killed, and between 12:45 when Schwartz see's the assault and 01:00am when Diemschutz discovers the body there is a fifteen minute window when the killer, or killers, could easily have dragged Strides body further back into the yard. Hiding it they could simply have waited until all was quiet in the club, and then gone back to remove/dispose of it.

And just exactly how do you coerce two hundred plus people into silence over the brutal killing of a woman? Even given that every single one of them shares the same political belief (something we do not know, half of them could have been there for a drink and a sing song) this by no means that they all share the same lack of moral indignation over the slaying of a complete stranger, and a female one at that.

Hi Sox,

In your first sentence....the crime having been committed could not be concealed...thats where I was going, not that it was done in private.

And as far as timings go, if we care to include 2 other witness that give their times, the murder may have been committed before this Israel fella says he saw what he saw,a nd 15 minutes before Diemshitz says he arrived.....which would put the Schwartz ID of Liz in serious question, as well as Diemshutz's accuracy on his time...dont you agree?

As I indicated, that the Club HAD to portray themselves as completely blameless in order to continue to have a Club at all...since the Police had concerns about this club in terms of anarchists before any murder in the yard....and since Ive recently discovered that in fact this was considered the HQ for such individuals in the area at that point in time.

Youll note that I mentioned few had to know that someone hired by or loosely connected with the club had anything to do with the murder...by Isaacs statement he is called into the yard by Diemshutz at 12:40am and Eagle and the bunch now upstairs dont come down until Diemshutz enters the house to look for his wife and notify the remaining members about what he found.

These same men are arrested within months for attacking the Police with Clubs in that same yard....their lawlessness and disregard for legal authority is therefore documented.

What youre asking is why would they lie.....what Im telling you is that few even had to lie....Diemshutz, Mrs D, Isaac K, and Eagle. The Club Steward, his wife, his right hand man and the Club speaker. Maybe Wess. The men, and woman, who had the most to lose if the Club closed.

The woman was dead, what did it really matter in their eyes if their stories intentionally made the Club look less culpable anyway? They didnt kill her...she just happened to die in their yard.

Best regards Sox

[Hunter]

You might include the American, Lave, I believe, because he states somewhere( probably to the press, maybe the Daily News) the he was outside about 12:40 also.

One question, though. Where does Mrs. Mortimer fit into this? The Evening News I believe reported that she heard Diemshutz's cart go by just before 1 and then the commotion started, albeit not a direct quote as I recall and not part of the inquest testimony.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[perrymason]

You might include the American, Lave, I believe, because he states somewhere( probably to the press, maybe the Daily News) the he was outside about 12:40 also.

One question, though. Where does Mrs. Mortimer fit into this? The Evening News I believe reported that she heard Diemshutz's cart go by just before 1 and then the commotion started, albeit not a direct quote as I recall and not part of the inquest testimony.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

Heres a quick timeline of the most relevant witness statements Hunter, without all the particulars...

12:35- PC Smith sees Liz with a man
12:35-Spooner says he met with 2 men from the Club in the street
12:40-Lave says he was returning to his room in the yard after being in the yard and by the gates until roughly this time, saw no-one
12:40-Eagle says he returned, tried the front door, and entered via the yard, saw no-one
12:40-Isaac Kozebrodski says Louis Diemshutz called him in to the yard, alone
12:41-Isaac says Louis sent him to go for help, alone
12:40-45-Spooner's account says he is in the yard
12:45-Israel Schwartz says he sees Liz Stride and a Broadshouldered Man interact roughly in front of the gate. He says the man yelled at him "Lipski" when he was looking at the man, and Israel noticed a man on the other side of the road with a pipe, coming out of a doorway.
12:45-James Brown says he saw Liz Stride with a man by the school, the man was leaning over her with her back to the wall and he heard some quiet conversation that included the woman saying "not tonight"
12:45-1:00am-Fanny Mortimer says she was out to her door and back inside off and on from this point until 1am. Sees no-one by the gates until 12:56am
12:45am to 12:56am-Fanny hears boots she thinks are police
12:45-Isaac says he returned to the yard alone, having met no-one
12:56-Fanny sees Goldstein pass hurriedly by after looking in the yard
Near 1:00am-Fanny hears a cart and horse
1:00-Louis Diemshutz says he pulled into the yard and discovered the body
1:01-Louis says he ran indoors and called upstairs for people to come and see.
1:01-1:02-Louis and Eagle say they and Isaac and some other men are first by the body
1:02-1:03-Louis says he and Isaac go running out towards Grove, Eagle says he heads out towards Commercial
1:05-Louis says he and Isaac meet Spooner on the street
1:06-Louis's timing has Spooner first arriving now
1:10-First police onsite
1:16-Blackwell arrives

Now, not all these are Inquest witnesses, including Israel, but thats what the press reports some said that day.

That means that Isaac not only confused what time he went into the yard, who called him, who he left the yard with and who he met while returning...even whether he was alone or not. Spooner must have also been wrong, although his timing and Isaac's match up roughly...if either is off a few minutes. Since we know Spooner's time is the time that PC Smith sees Liz, I suggest he was in error a few minutes.

And that means they both were off by 20 minutes.
And that its possible by the above that Lave, Eagle, Isaac and Louis were in the yard at 12:40am, and at least Eagle and Lave didnt see anyone. Louis of course says he wasnt even on Berner Street yet.

Hope that helps illustrate some of the problems I see.

Best regards Hunter

[lynn cates]

schedule

Hello Mike. Bravo! Well done.

Of course, there's the old saw, "Jack didn't have to operate on a schedule did he?" (snicker!)

The best, mate.
LC

[DVV]

Hi Mike,

let's prune a bit...

You can forget and dismiss Brown as a witness.
He has both Schwartz and Kozebrodski against him.

Amitiés,
David

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,

let's prune a bit...

You can forget and dismiss Brown as a witness.
He has both Schwartz and Kozebrodski against him.

Amitiés,
David

Ah, but my friend Brown is the only man with the 12:45am sighting on record at the Inquest....might I suggest reversing the role of the "trashman"? And Brown wouldnt have seen anyone in the yard...not from his angle.

If you start seeing that around 12:40 or 12:45 we seem to have witness convergence and some timeline verifications, what would 15 minutes of delay in seeking help do for your opinion of our Club men and their tales?

Thanks for the high five Lynn.

Cheers David, all the best

[DVV]

My dear Mike,

I'm lost... More than ever...
At what time would you put the murder, and the (real, genuine, original) arrival of Diemshitzshutz?

Amitiés,
David

[perrymason]

My dear Mike,

I'm lost... More than ever...
At what time would you put the murder, and the (real, genuine, original) arrival of Diemshitzshutz?

Amitiés,
David

Hi David,

I think its possible by those timings that the reason Brown didnt see anyone outside the gates at 12:45am, nor Fanny when she was in and out by the door to the street, is that Liz Stride was out of view shortly after PC Smiths sighting.

The logical place for her to be then, considering the time, is already in the yard. That puts her in the yard roughly when Isaac says Louis called him to the yard from inside the Club, when Eagle says he arrived in the yard, and when Lave says he was still in the yard. It puts them all out of sight of Fanny and James Brown, and it allows roughly for Issac's time to have been accurate as to when he was sent out for help and then followed shortly thereafter by Diemshutz and someone, and then Eagle, running towards Commercial. That also allows for Spooner to be mistaken about his arrival time in the yard, but only by 5-7 minutes, not by more than 20. Which is coincidentally the same margin of error that Isaac would be guilty of if he was incorrect in his times.

The cart and horse........you and I know Louis pulls into the yard at some point, Fanny hears it....but does she hear it pulling into the yard, or heading off after being unloaded to where Louis actually stabled the set? Ask yourself this....Were the cart and horse still there when Spooner or the Police first arrive? Does Spooner mention it? Nope....instead he says about 15 people were standing around the body.....which means the cart and horse were one of 2 places....further in the yard, or off the property on their way to the stable. 15 people and the cart and horse could not be in that opening in a way that he could have missed them.

Blackwell's times include a murder at 12:46am....but what if he was too early by just 5 minutes for the earliest cut off time for the death stroke....pardon the pun. The next physician on site says he thought she was killed within the hour....he arrives around 1:30am....so that includes a time like the above scenario suggests.

Fanny sees Leon Goldstein with a Gladstone full of empty cigarette cartons walking towards the Club from Commercial Street,...he is a club member and some other club members that live in the cottages, who were cigarette makers said they were awake at that time. At 12:56 he is in front of the gates, looks in, and continues to walk hurriedly past. Was he bringing those cartons to the cigarette makers that were still awake and changed his mind based on what he sees when he looked in? Was he "shooed" along by some men standing just inside the gates?

Who are the boots that Fanny hears between 12:45am and 12:56am? Perhaps they are Isaac returning to the crime scene....because she only hears one set of boots.

Would Liz be standing inside a yard of a private Club just after 12:35am if she was the only one in the yard and it was pitch black in most places? I say no, she wouldnt. She would likely have wanted some people or at least one other person to have felt comfortable. But if she was in the yard before 12:40am, then she would have been in there by their own accounts with Eagle, Lave...and by Issac's statement, perhaps Louis as well. All men who dont see anyone....and one man who by his own account wasnt yet at Berner Street.

I think she met Eagle when he arrived, he took her into the yard to wait, leaving her with some "low men" that were often in that yard past 1am on Meeting nights...and while he was upstairs, he heard a woman was found just inside the gates, he assumed it might be Liz,...and he tumbled "pell-mell" down the stairs to see a bloody scene while at the same time being very afraid of the sight of blood. He only came running cause he thought he knew the woman,...the one he just left in the yard to wait for him...perhaps while he collected his speakers pay and said goodnight to the remaining members.

The above makes some sense to me anyway, it fits with some of the witnesses but not the ones we have relied on most for the "accurate" data, and it presents them with a situation that required damage control....I believe, some of that in the form of stories that create an empty yard until 1am.

Now David.....I hope Ive been clearer.

My best mon ami

[Hunter]

Hello Michael,

Interesting about the cart as no one mentions it in the testimony other than Louis, but since it was supposedly irrelevant after the body was found it may have just not been mentioned.

If the cart was leaving instead of coming when Mrs. Mortimer was supposed to have heard it( not a direct quote by the press) who was driving it? It seems that if it was Louis it would be impossible for him to get back in time for PC Lamb to arrive. Mrs. Mortimer is said to have heard the commotion just after she heard the cart ( again, not a direct quote).

Spooner also says in his inquest testimony that he and his girlfriend was standing outside the pub between 12:30 and 1. They had been there for about 25 minutes when they saw 2 jews running for help. He said that the police arrived at the club about the same time he did. This could put him in the right time frame of shortly after one- not that it rally matters as far as your thesis is concerned.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[Tom_Wescott]

Timings and such

Hello all,

Having little time, I've only skimmed this thread, and don't pretend to understand most of it. But just to get a few things straight. Hardly anyone wore watches in the East End, and this includes policemen, so many will be way off in their timing. Edward Spooner was way off, and we know that, but we can fix his time from others.

A few minutes before one, Leon Goldstein says he went through Berner Street.
A few minutes before one, Fanny saw him, and said it was just a few minutes later she heard Diemschutz's cart pass by.
Diemschutz says he arrived at 1am and DID fix his time by a clock. This fits in perfectly with the evidence of Goldstein and Mortimer.
James Brown would have arrived home at around 12:50am and estimates it was about 15 minutes later (approx. 1:05am) when he heard the clubmen calling 'Murder'. Again, this supports Diemschutz's timing.

I hope it's obvious there's no reason to assume Diemschutz found the body any earlier than 1am.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Hello all,

Having little time, I've only skimmed this thread, and don't pretend to understand most of it. But just to get a few things straight. Hardly anyone wore watches in the East End, and this includes policemen, so many will be way off in their timing. Edward Spooner was way off, and we know that, but we can fix his time from others.

A few minutes before one, Leon Goldstein says he went through Berner Street.
A few minutes before one, Fanny saw him, and said it was just a few minutes later she heard Diemschutz's cart pass by.
Diemschutz says he arrived at 1am and DID fix his time by a clock. This fits in perfectly with the evidence of Goldstein and Mortimer.
James Brown would have arrived home at around 12:50am and estimates it was about 15 minutes later (approx. 1:05am) when he heard the clubmen calling 'Murder'. Again, this supports Diemschutz's timing.

I hope it's obvious there's no reason to assume Diemschutz found the body any earlier than 1am.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,

To be factual Louis said what time he was and how he arrived at it...its not a fact. Neither is it a fact that Spooner was wrong when he said "I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove- street, and then turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter, and they replied that a woman had been murdered. I thereupon proceeded down Berner-street and into Dutfield's-yard, adjoining the International Workmen's Club-house, and there saw a woman lying just inside the gate."

Diemshitz is in fact directly contradicted in Issac's version that he told the press when he said "About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom".[1]

And in the case of Louis Diemshitz and Israel Schwartz neither stories are verified by any corroboration.

If Isaac tells the truth to the press, since he is not, for some reason, called to the Inquest we cant be certain, but if he did, and Spooner did, Spooner and his lass would be at the Beehive perhaps by 10-15 past 12, and after 25 minutes or so of loitering, would have seen the 2 Jews going by at about the time Isaac says that he was sent out alone. Isaac doesnt mention seeing Spooner on the road.

Louis could have pulled in around 12:40am and later said he pulled in at 1am. Fanny could have heard the cart and horse being taken away, not arriving. And the boots might have belonged to Isaac. Goldstein might have been shooed along by the group of men near the gate...to explain "hurriedly".

If he did pull in when Isaac says he was called into the yard by him, which roughly matches the timing of Spooners encounter on the street, then Louis lied and all the members who were aware of an earlier arrival lied.

To avoid jail, suspicion of not only this murder but of being seen just like Andersons profile for Jack the Ripper, and the collapse of the club,...I could see it being pitched as a white lie for the sake of the club.

After all, I havent suggested that any member actually killed her....just that they were in no hurry to allow the appearances to kill their organization either.

Best regards Tom