Escape Routes From Dutfield's Yard: Pall Mall Gazette

[spyglass]

Rubyretro,

I find it hard to believe that if Stride was one of the five canonical victims,then the killer wouldnt have planed to cut her up like the others. that does'nt make sense.

Yes it would have been pitch black, but more so in the yard ( therefore easier to hide in a dark corner ) I would think there would have been some kind of light in the street however dim.

I find your Horse racing link intresting, I have'nt heard of that before.

[Rubyretro]

Spyglass -I've just witten a bit on my horse racing link under 'General Discussion -Name your First 3 Suspects"

If you don't think that Jack intended to mutilate Liz, that's because you still think that he was 'out of control' rather than cool & calculating.

If he had got into a corner in Dutfield's yard, then he would not have been able to explain away being next to the dead victim. He needed an escape route.

As to the light -well, there may of been flickering gas light from a club window -but tell me where you think other light would have come from ??

(I'm interested. I don't know).

[spyglass]

HI Rubyretro,
I would'nt say that the killer was out of control or calm and calculating, I just dont know, I just think that the killer was likely to panic in the situation he found himself in. ( I say likely )

I am assuming that there was proberbly some kind of gas street lighting as there was in most streets at that time, even Mitre square had one in the far corner, admitedly I could'nt say how much light they gave off though, im guessing not alot.

[Hunter]

There is much information on the lighting around Dutfields Yard on the "Did Jack Kill Liz?" thread, but in short... the darkest spot was in the front of the yard near the gates ( where Liz was killed). The lights from the editor's office and the tenements across the way illuminated the back of the yard. There were no ground floor windows or openings until you reached the kitchen door, some 18 ft. back from the street.

This passage was very narrow ( 9' 2"). Remember Louis had to strike a match to see was was lying there.

[FrankO]

In addition to Hunter's post, here's what I found on the lighting conditions in Berner Street. It's in the Daily Telegraph of Wednesday, October 3, 1888, as part of the deposition of PC Lamb:

"The Foreman: Was there light sufficient to enable you to see, as you were going down Berner-street, whether any person was running away from No. 40? - It was rather dark, but I think there was light enough for that, though the person would be somewhat indistinct from Commercial-road.
The Foreman: Some of the papers state that Berner-street is badly lighted; but there are six lamps within 700 feet, and I do not think that is very bad.
The Coroner: The parish plan shows that there are four lamps within 350 feet, from Commercial-road to Fairclough-street.
Witness: There are three, if not four, lamps in Berner-street between Commercial- road and Fairclough-street. Berner-street is about as well lighted as other side streets. Most of them are rather dark, but more lamps have been erected lately.
The Coroner: I do not think that London altogether is as well lighted as some capitals are.
Witness: There are no public-house lights in Berner-street. I was engaged in the yard and at the mortuary all the night afterwards."

But it appears that, even though there were street lamps every 40 yards or so in Berner Street, there wasn't one opposite Dutfield's Yard.

All the best,
Frank

[Tom_Wescott]

And Mitre Square and possibly even 29 Hanbury Street.

I don't believe so. The riskiest murder site had to have been Hanbury Street.

With regards to the other crime scenes, the ripper was never interupted and so never tested.

The Ripper was almost certainly interrupted in Buck's Row, and only possibly interrupted in Berner Street.

I'm really going to stick my neck out now and give a second possible reason :
there are two horse races run as a 'double event' at Newmarket in late September/early October (exact dates variable). They are the Cambridgeshire and the Cesarewitch, known together as the 'Autumn Double'.
Since personally, my favourite suspect is ex-groom George Hutchinson, I think that this may have been his own 'Autumn Double' and an 'in' joke.

This is rather brilliant and begs for further research. Were these (or similar) horseraces referred to as 'double events'? Certainly a pressman or a betting man would be familiar enough with the term to call it immediately to mind. Might be a good clue.

This passage was very narrow ( 9' 2"). Remember Louis had to strike a match to see was was lying there.

The gateway was 9' 2' and the passageway would have been a bit wider, probably 10'. Small matter, but I thought I'd mention int.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Rob Clack]

I don't believe so. The riskiest murder site had to have been Hanbury Street.

Millers Court, would be the riskiest murder site and then Dutfields Yard.
Hanbury Street would be third riskiest and then Bucks Row and finally Mitre Square.

Rob

[Tom_Wescott]

Miller's Court would be dangerous IF someone were to come in, by virtue of the fact that his escape route would be blocked. But it was also the site the provided the most cover. And the door was locked.

In Hanbury Street, it was virtually daylight and Ripper was standing under the windows of 17 individuals who would be waking up and needing to stand in line for the privvy. His escape was a simple doorway which any two people could block. He must also have been aware of the man moving back and for only feet from him in the next yard.

In Dutfield's Yard, by contrast, he was in darkness, and next to a wide exit which he could utilize before anyone coming from the house and yard could see him, and in the event someone came in the gateway from the street, he could easily shoot past them within them getting so much as a glimpse. Very low risk for a murder, more of a risk for mutilation. I can't see how one could argue the Hanbury Street at that time of morning could have been a 'safer' bet than Dutfield's Yard.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Rob Clack]

Miller's Court would be dangerous IF someone were to come in, by virtue of the fact that his escape route would be blocked. But it was also the site the provided the most cover. And the door was locked.

Miller's Court was dangerous in the fact that if he was discovered he would have only had the one escape route which was the doorway.

In Hanbury Street, it was virtually daylight and Ripper was standing under the windows of 17 individuals who would be waking up and needing to stand in line for the privvy. His escape was a simple doorway which any two people could block. He must also have been aware of the man moving back and for only feet from him in the next yard.

If discovered and the entrance into Hanbury Street blocked he could have gotten over the fences into neighbouring alleys.

In Dutfield's Yard, by contrast, he was in darkness, and next to a wide exit which he could utilize before anyone coming from the house and yard could see him, and in the event someone came in the gateway from the street, he could easily shoot past them within them getting so much as a glimpse. Very low risk for a murder, more of a risk for mutilation. I can't see how one could argue the Hanbury Street at that time of morning could have been a 'safer' bet than Dutfield's Yard.

He was running the risk if somebody came upon him suddenly, there was only one way out, and he wasn't quite near the entrance, where in Hanbury Street there were other options open to him if he got stuck in a tight corner.

Rob

[Tom_Wescott]

In hindsight we can say 13 Millers Court was dangerous, but to the mind of someone who'd gotten away with a number of murders on the street, it likely would not have seemed so, being inside behind a locked door. So, from the perspective of the murderer, it was the least dangerous, although it would indeed have been the most precarious if (and only if) someone came in.

Regarding Hanbury Street, you're assuming the Ripper was willing and able to hop fences.

In Dutfield's Yard, he was most certainly next to the exit, which was the gateway.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Rob Clack]

In hindsight we can say 13 Millers Court was dangerous, but to the mind of someone who'd gotten away with a number of murders on the street, it likely would not have seemed so, being inside behind a locked door. So, from the perspective of the murderer, it was the least dangerous, although it would indeed have been the most precarious if (and only if) someone came in.

Your assuming you know the mind of the killer.

Regarding Hanbury Street, you're assuming the Ripper was willing and able to hop fences.

I am, but I think it is a fair assumption to make.

In Dutfield's Yard, he was most certainly next to the exit, which was the gateway.

About six or seven feet away from the entrance and and probably with his back to it as well.
I'm basing my opinions on the murder locations themselves and not the positions of where the victim and murderer is as there are too many ifs and buts to think about.

Millers Court, one way in and out and that's a doorway.
Dutfields Yard, one way in and one way out, 9 ft 2in gateway.
Hanbury Street, the main entrance plus the possibility of other escape points over neighbouring fences (East and West) into alleyways leading back to Hanbury Street. Also the back door of 29 Hanbury Steet would have given him some cover from the main street.
Mitre Square three exits
Bucks Row, two exits possibly a third.

Rob

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm not "assuming" anything, Rob, I'm inferring. Based on the Ripper killing a woman indoors for the first time, and spending a much longer time with her than previous victims, it is safe to say that he wasn't thinking to himself "Gee, this is the most dangerous murder spot I've yet chosen!" In the case of Stride, there were no mutilations, so the spot was quite safe for a quick kill. Hanbury Street, where he chose to linger, would be more dangerous for these reasons. And the fence closest to him led into a backyard where someone was clearing moving back and forth.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Rob Clack]

All the sites were safe for a quick kill and I think he would have been aware of his surroundings in case he would have had to make a quick exit if need be.
The lack of mutilations in Strides case might be explained by her murder not being committed by the Ripper.

Rob

[Tom_Wescott]

Absolutely, same as with Eddowes, where the wounds were medically determined to be not in keeping with the other murders. There are many variables to be considered, but in the end the likely conclusion can only be the conclusion arrived at by the majority of investigators - that the canonical five were killed by the same person(s), with other murders possibly committed by the same killer(s) as well.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GregBaron]

Escape...........

I tend to agree with Tom in this discussion....all the sites
were incredibly bold but such is the nature of the Ripper's work..

He may have jumped fences in Hanbury but someone may have chased him
and had a mob on him in no time if discovered...

All least in Berner and Buck's and Mitre he had quite a bit of space
and darkness going for him....

I also agree JtR seemed comfortable enough to spend an hour or 2 in Miller's
Court doing his evil work.....with a locked door and perhaps a coat
covering the windows he must have felt cocooned....leaving was probably
the most dangerous part........

It really does seem he needed a lookout to get away with it
as he did.............


Greg