Escape Routes From Dutfield's Yard: Pall Mall Gazette

[lynn cates]

venue

Hello Observer. Quite possible. We know that more than one person used that kitchen door for an egress. Why not someone popping out for a breath of fresh air?

And this brings up an interesting question. Was Liz familiar with this location and the party going on inside? If she were, she'd be aware that it was a poor venue to ply her trade.

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

Hi Mike

With an estimated TOD of 12:45 a.m. have you ever considered the possibility that Liz Strides killer was disturbed, shortly after cutting her throat, at the above time? There were quite a few people in the club that night it could well be that one of them came to either of the doors for fresh air or some other reason. It was also somewhat early for a Saturday night Sunday morning, someone might have passed in the street, thus disturbing him.

all the best

Observer

I have Observer, but we need to stay cognizant that we have 2 sightings of Liz at 12:45am, and neither of them have her even inside the yard yet.

My personal hunch is that on that Saturday night there was no reason for that yard to be empty, and it directly refutes multiple neighborhood accounts of the usual after meeting yard activity, which often ran past 1am....with low men and women in attendance. Plus, the rain stopped before 11:30pm.... when the meeting broke up,...and we have 28 men drinking past that time and a privy that is in the yard. My spider senses tell me that booze and privies somehow connect.....

Plus, we know that at least one man was in that yard that is unaccounted for by the witnesses...her killer.

Best regards Observer

[Gman992]

One also has to realize that it was pitch black outside. The notion that there were "streetlights" everywhere is just not accurate. I think at the time of the Polly Nichols murder, Buck's Row just had one light that was way down the street. JtR could've just hid some darkened doorway. I'm mean just walk downtown in your city at night, those doorways are always pitched black. Sure, you had moonlight, but one must take into consideration all of the smoke and ash the factories were given off. I wouldn't be surprised if people were coughing soot up like PigPen wherever they went. To parphase Hannibal Lector in "Red Dragon," "Have you seen blood in the moonlight? Will, It appears quite black." BTW...does anyone know where I can see good crime scene diagrams of the murders? This site has some, but they are just from old ordinance maps.

[protohistorian]

Here's a detailed map of Dutfield's Yard

[ATTACH]7338[/ATTACH]

Rob

Are the addresses behind 32 and 34 berner street addresses? Dave

[protohistorian]

Here's a detailed map of Dutfield's Yard

[ATTACH]7338[/ATTACH]

Rob

Are the addresses behind 32 and 34 berner street addresses? Dave

[Rob Clack]

Are the addresses behind 32 and 34 berner street addresses? Dave

They are 'Batty's Gardens' addresses.

Rob

[protohistorian]

Thank You very much sir! Dave

[Rubyretro]

The differences in the locations between Liz Stride's murder & the other canonicals may not be as clear cut as you (we) imagine :

The fact that JtR chose a location right next to a jewish club meeting might not mean 'inspite' of the jewish club meeting but BECAUSE of the jewish club meeting. Evidently with drink flowing & the privy in the yard, then JtR risked
being caught -and would explain haste in the killing and lack of mutilations.

Whilst Mitre Square might seem more isolated, it was infact close to another jewish club night -from which Lawende & friends were leaving..

Is this a chance coincidence or not ?

These jewish clubs were held in these locations because they were in proximty to synagogues.

The other 3 canonical murders were -coincidently- also in locations close to synagogues. Could there have been other clubs meeting on the nights of the murders ?

There certainly WAS a documented jewish club near the site of Polly's murder,
although I see it is mentioned at a later date as being frequented by Marx.
When did it start meeting ?

I also read (here on the forums), that it was very usual for 'one nighter' club meetings to be held in local pub rooms.

I don't think it coincidental that the dates of JtRs murders fell around the
change of month & on weekends -but rather than being linked to his job, could they have been linked to club meetings ??

Would jewish meetings above pubs be held close to the synagogues where their members lived & worshiped ?

This is a hypothosis, but which can surely still be researched by someone..

I think that the fact that the police & public thought that there was a jewish link & were so quick to point the fingure at jewish looking suspects reflect the fact that these things were known at the time, although maybe censored in the archives.

Personally, I DON'T think that JtR was jewish at all -but rather wanted to throw suspicion on that section of the immigrant community for his own reasons.

I myself am living in another country, very busy, and I can't see myself being obsessed enough to research all the details of this...but I feel strongly that there are some clear avenues calling out to be researched by some enterprising soul.

[Rubyretro]

QUOTE=Rubyretro;136421]The differences in the locations between Liz Stride's murder & the other canonicals may not be as clear cut as you (we) imagine :

The fact that JtR chose a location right next to a jewish club meeting might not mean 'in spite' of the jewish club meeting but BECAUSE of the jewish club meeting. Evidently with drink flowing & the privy in the yard, then JtR risked
being caught -and would explain haste in the killing and lack of mutilations.

Whilst Mitre Square might seem more isolated, it was infact close to another jewish club night -from which Lawende & friends were leaving..

Is this a chance coincidence or not ?

These jewish clubs were held in these locations because they were in proximty to synagogues.

The other 3 canonical murders were -coincidently- also in locations close to synagogues. Could there have been other clubs meeting on the nights of the murders ?

There certainly WAS a documented jewish club near the site of Polly's murder,
although I see it is mentioned at a later date as being frequented by Marx.
When did it start meeting ?

I also read (here on the forums), that it was very usual for 'one nighter' club meetings to be held in local pub rooms.

I don't think it coincidental that the dates of JtRs murders fell around the
change of month & on weekends -but rather than being linked to his job, could they have been linked to club meetings ??

Would jewish meetings above pubs be held close to the synagogues where their members lived & worshiped ?

This is a hypothosis, but which can surely still be researched by someone..

I think that the fact that the police & public thought that there was a jewish link & were so quick to point the finger at jewish looking suspects reflect the fact that these things were known at the time, although maybe censored in the archives.

Personally, I DON'T think that JtR was jewish at all -but rather wanted to throw suspicion on that section of the immigrant community for his own reasons.

I myself am living in another country, very busy, and I can't see myself being obsessed enough to research all the details of this...but I feel strongly that there are some clear avenues calling out to be researched by some enterprising soul.[/QUOTE]

[spyglass]

HI all !
Rubyretro makes some intresting points, I dont know whether this angle has been covered before ( I would be surprised if it has'nt } but its not one That I have read up on before.
But if there was something to it, then it would surely make the GSG quite an important clue

[Monty]

Rubyretro, Spyglass,

Tom Wescott.

Monty

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Spy and Ruby, and thanks for the introduction, Monty.

There are a lot of curious circumstances surrounding the murder sites that may or may not be coincidence. The men of the Berner Street Club were also to be found at 22 Hanbury Street, heading up the Match Girl's Strike with Annie Besant. Of course, Annie Chapman was murdered at 29 Hanbury Street. The Jewish Baths were on Goulston Street, across the way from where the graffiti was found. There's an old flyer that shows the Berner Street men heading up a march that starts in Goulston Street at these Baths and terminates in Mitre Square.

For what it's worth, Polly Nichols was found murdered outside locked stable gates that were identical to the gates leading into Dutfield's Yard. Eddowes was likewise murdered in front of gates. All of the victims were found murdered within feet of a door of some kind.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

antagonism

Hello Ruby. You have some interesting thoughts here. Of course, we do well to remember that the club at 40 Berner st was antagonistic to the Orthodox Jews of the synagogue and vice versa.

There was a Jewish theatre on Princes st that, in January 1887, was the site of a "false" fire--someone shouted "Fire!" during a performance and caused 17 people to be trampled to death. The patrons were convinced that the Synagogue people were responsible and had done this deliberately.

Cheers.
LC

[drstrange169]

>>The men of the Berner Street Club were also to be found at 22 Hanbury St<<


And at Bucks Row where outdoor rallies were held.

[Tom_Wescott]

This is true, Strange, although we don't know that the Berner Street men were involved in those rallies.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott