saving Liz Stride

[Archaic]

Possible Scenario?

Hi, Roy and Lynn.

OK, how about this: Is it possible that the Ripper used Liz's motion of pulling out her package of cachous to rapidly pull out his knife?

Maybe he pointed the knife at her throat while covering her mouth with his other hand and rapidly pivotting her back into Dutfield's yard.

Is it possible that in her fear she reflexively clutched the package of cachous even more tightly in her hand, maybe automatically bringing that fist up towards her throat as people often do when they are terrified or being choked, and that this somehow kept the package from dropping to the ground?

I'm thinking that he could have cut her throat a few feet from where he actually laid her down, so perhaps he could have slashed her while they were still a bit closer to the gate. Maybe even as many feet away as she was tall?

I'm trying to visualize the killer semi-supporting her weight or catching her as she collapsed, then instantly "walking" or dragging her back a few feet into the shadows almost in the same motion as he laid her down.

- And then Diemschutz suddenly appears and he has to flee.

What do you think, does that seem plausible?

Best regards, Archaic

[Archaic]

Possible Scenario?

Hi, Roy and Lynn.

OK, how about this: Is it possible that the Ripper used Liz's motion of pulling out her package of cachous to rapidly pull out his knife?

Maybe he pointed the knife at her throat while covering her mouth with his other hand and rapidly pivoted her back into Dutfield's yard.

Is it possible that in her fear she reflexively clutched the package of cachous even more tightly in her hand, maybe automatically bringing that fist up towards her throat as people often do when they are terrified or being choked, and that this somehow kept the package from dropping to the ground?

I'm thinking that he could have cut her throat a few feet from where he actually laid her down, so perhaps he could have slashed her while they were still a bit closer to the gate. Maybe even as many feet away as she was tall?

I'm trying to visualize the killer semi-supporting her weight or catching her as she collapsed, then instantly "walking" or dragging her back a few feet into the shadows virtually in the same motion as he laid her down.
If they are both upright for a second, with his arm around her from back to front, he could leverage her weight more easily than if he first dropped her & then tried to move her.He could basically just take a few steps back while still gripping her; it would only take a split second to do.

- And then, as he lays her down, Diemschutz suddenly appears and he has to flee.

What do you think, does that seem plausible?

Best regards, Archaic

[lynn cates]

raisong the bar for Liz

Hello Archaic. I believe this is the first time anyone has tried the reconstruction with jack. This is what I am looking for--you have raised the bar considerably.

"Is it possible that in her fear she reflexively clutched the package of cachous even more tightly in her hand, maybe automatically bringing that fist up towards her throat as people often do when they are terrified or being choked, and that this somehow kept the package from dropping to the ground?"

Not only is it possible, but I INSIST upon it. This is the nub of the matter. Excellent!

"I'm thinking that he could have cut her throat a few feet from where he actually laid her down, so perhaps he could have slashed her while they were still a bit closer to the gate. Maybe even as many feet away as she was tall?"

She was 5' 5". Her feet were 9' from the gates. Jack would need to drag her 9 or 10 feet. Any reason why he dragged her?

"I'm trying to visualize the killer semi-supporting her weight or catching her as she collapsed . . ."

No doubt in my mind. This seems so clear.

"then instantly "walking" or dragging her back a few feet into the shadows virtually in the same motion as he laid her down. If they are both upright for a second, with his arm around her from back to front, he could leverage her weight more easily than if he first dropped her & then tried to move her. He could basically just take a few steps back while still gripping her; it would only take a split second to do."

Maybe 5 or 6 seconds at least. This scenario preserves body direction and, given Jack's hand over her left hand, might explain the cachous.

"And then as he lays her down, Diemschutz suddenly appears and he has to flee."

OK here.

"What do you think, does that seem plausible?"

Yes, all except for the dragging of Liz. But perhaps one could find an explanation for that.

Thanks.

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

I have to admit I am still a little lost here. Is all this based on the assumption that the BS man was her killer?

c.d.

[c.d.]

I reread the posts and am even more confused. Are you saying the BS man was Jack? I have argued for years that the cachous and the lack of screams coming from the yard indicate that the BS man was not her killer.

I am totally lost here now as to what point is being made.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

BS

Hello CD. I believe that Archaic's reconstruction required BS = Jack.

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Well if the BS man was her killer, he killed her after being seen by two witnesses one of whom ran off possibly to fetch the police. It would also mean that the cachous survived Liz being thrown to the ground which is unlikely. They would have broken and spilled. So most likely they were not in her hand at the time. It would also mean that the cachous had to survive Liz being dragged into the yard as she attempted to fight off the BS man. If she was being dragged by the BS man into the yard why did she not scream for help? Way too many red flags with the BS man as her killer scenario.

c.d.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I would suggest that after the assault by BS, who proberly was her killer,she turned and walked into the yard herself , towards what she considered was the safety of the club, but only managed a few feet.
Liz proberly never attributed this attack as any more sinister then a drunken nuisance, and by walking towards the club itself , he would scarper.
But she was wrong..
Regards Richard.

[Jon Guy]

Well if the BS man was her killer, he killed her after being seen by two witnesses one of whom ran off possibly to fetch the police.

Hi C.D.

I agree with Roy, Schwartz saw the actual murder being committed just inside the gates.

[lynn cates]

problems

Hello CD. I agree that the problems are manifold.

I think Archaic was envisioning Jack dragging Liz whilst his hand was wrapped around hers which, in turn, clutched the cachous.

Of course, all this makes the non-Jack scenarios look a bit more convincing.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

hither and thither

Hello Richard.

"I would suggest that after the assault by BS, who prob[ab]ly was her killer, she turned and walked into the yard herself, towards what she considered was the safety of the club, but only managed a few feet."

This is a perfectly natural reaction to an incipient fracas. But the main difficulty lies in body placement.

If Liz were walking INTO the yard (and let's go ahead and put the cachous into her hand before she does so), and if "Jack" followed her and did a quick cut, her head would be towards the gates and her feet towards the kitchen door. But it was the other way about.

Could "Jack" invert her body? Of course, but in doing so, the cachous would spill. The cachous are the big bug bear here and their presence precludes any sudden movement EXCEPT a quick seizure and cut.

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi C.D.

I agree with Roy, Schwartz saw the actual murder being committed just inside the gates.

Hi Jon,

How then do you explain the cachous and the fact that no one heard any screams coming from the yard? Did the BS man have no fear of being hanged and therefore did not care that he had been seen?

c.d.

[Jon Guy]

Hi C.D.

How then do you explain the cachous and the fact that no one heard any screams coming from the yard?

Schwartz heard her scream, but not very loudly, either because the scarf was been pulled tight, or her throat was being cut.

The cachous, she had made a fist to defend herself, or it was the shock of the cut throat cut.

Did the BS man have no fear of being hanged and therefore did not care that he had been seen?

It was too late for BS Man, he had just thrown down and killed Stride when he
shouted at Schwartz.

I.M.H.O. the scenario that holds up best to scrutiny is that what Schwartz thought was an assault, was in fact her murder.

[c.d.]

Hi Roy,

The cachous are a problem. They are a big problem. They are a huge problem if we want to accept the BS man as Liz's killer. The question is when did Liz first take out the cachous? If you want to ignore that question that is up to you.

As far as the screams, Schwartz stated that Liz gave out three small screams when thrown to the ground out in the street. But Liz was killed in the yard not the street. If she was dragged by the BS man why did she not scream? And if she attempted to fight off the BS man, how did the cachous remain in her hand unbroken?

Ah, those damned cachous.

c.d.

[perrymason]

There seems to be some confusion as to why the cachous present a problem, and what Liz was doing at the time she is grabbed.

Since her feet face the gates, and her head is close to the gutter and the club wall, and since we have a Senior medical opinion that the attacker likely used the scarf she was wearing to grab and choke her, from behind her....it was twisted tightly and nicked where the blade he slid across her throat encountered it....( an interesting note here is that you may want to look at some of the other Canonicals to see if the throat cut is above or below the line of the scarf),.....so a reconstruction has Liz facing the gates and the attacker behind her.

Thats why her turning to leave is a very reasonable suggestion.

The cachous represent a state of mind that would not likely be present within as little as 1 minute after the alledged altercation seen by Israel. She was dropped to the wet cobbles and the assailant was said to have been helping her brush off her skirt...as well as warning off a witness. She would not be thinking of her breath at that moment.

Yet she died considering it....very likely within 1-11 minutes of that altercation.

cd, all the circumstantial evidence points towards a social evening, Liz's lodgemate saying Liz had her "good evening wear" on, with a boot length skirt..something she might wear to work for a Jewish family but not to solicit in....she leaves something important to her with the woman for safe keeping as she doesnt know when she will be returning, she does not use her 6d earned to paid for her bed...she asks to borrow a lint brush to clean her skirt,... she is seen with a few different men but none we can state were clients that night, she acquires a flower arrangement for her jacket, some mints for her mouth, and she is standing sober at 12:45am outside a Mens Club gates while some 28 men are still in attendance. She is in the immediate area for at least 10-15 minutes prior.

Its important that we consider the testimony of 2 witnesses that appear at the Inquest for the answers to the question as to what she might be doing....both her ex lover and ex landlady said Liz had a history of disappearing for weeks or even months, and in the case of the ex-boyfriend, he says she eventually returns because "I believe she liked me better than any other man."

I think we have good reason to surmise that Liz likes men in her private life.... regularly......and she is now single.

Best regards cd, all.