Two

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Perry. I don't recall this report. Who else might have read it and could tell us the source?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Archaic]

No big deal about the news article, Jeff... this thread is kind of muddling me too.

Best regards, Archaic

[Tom_Wescott]

Pirate,

The general concensus regarding Pipeman's location is that he was at the corner, either in the doorway of the Nelson or just around its corner. Given the distance from there to the club gateway, he would not have seen much, other than dark figures moving around.

Packer changed the timing of his account repeatedly. At one point he said it happened at 12:30, which fits in with what the reporter is saying.

Remember that the whole reason the police didn't believe fully in Schwartz is because there was no corroboration for his story. Had Pipeman come forward with his part, Schwartz would have been regarded as more important a witness than Lawende.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Supe]

Jeff,

No banter, just asking logical questions and drawing logical inferences.

Anyway, the two accounts, beginning with "in the matter of the Hungarian . . ." and ending with ". . . without additional facts." are identical. We both know the source but not wanting to jump the gun on an upcoming Ripperologist article I will say nothing.

And Archaic, weeklies on both sides of the Atlantic at the time were wont to pick up stiries from other newspapers verbatim and without a by-line or a by-your-leave. Cutting and pasting is always easier than original thought.

What I would like, Jeff, is not more newspaper clips but your thoughts on why the police were still communicating among themselves more than a month later as if Pipeman was not identified and and questioned.

Don.

[Jeff Leahy]

Pirate,

The general concensus regarding Pipeman's location is that he was at the corner, either in the doorway of the Nelson or just around its corner. Given the distance from there to the club gateway, he would not have seen much, other than dark figures moving around.

I agree that his view would have been limited by angle once the attack moved inside the gates. The question about lighting is another matter and another time.

Packer changed the timing of his account repeatedly. At one point he said it happened at 12:30, which fits in with what the reporter is saying.

I'm not convinced packers Story would have been confused with the Star account, its possible I guess.

Remember that the whole reason the police didn't believe fully in Schwartz is because there was no corroboration for his story. Had Pipeman come forward with his part, Schwartz would have been regarded as more important a witness than Lawende.

Yours truly, Tom Wescott

But surely what is being argued here is that the police did beleive Schwartz story for some time. I simply raised the possibility that, given some press reports, its possible that there was another witness in Pipeman.

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff,

No banter, just asking logical questions and drawing logical inferences.

Anyway, the two accounts, beginning with "in the matter of the Hungarian . . ." and ending with ". . . without additional facts." are identical. We both know the source but not wanting to jump the gun on an upcoming Ripperologist article I will say nothing.

I know I have a reputation for sub-defuge but I really have know idea about a Ripperologist article you are talking about and have not spoken with Paul for some days. I've simply been trying to figure out angles and timings for Berner Street.

What I would like, Jeff, is not more newspaper clips but your thoughts on why the police were still communicating among themselves more than a month later as if Pipeman was not identified and and questioned. Don.

I will give it some thought. But as I said my main interest is what Schwartz saw. His timing. The angles and the lighting. And could the writen accounts, Police and Star, tally with actuality.

My comments on Pipeman are speculation on events not some undeclared inside information.

Pirate

[perrymason]

Hi Perry. I don't recall this report. Who else might have read it and could tell us the source?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Im looking for it now Tom and I had forgotten what a wealth of reports there were in Mondays paper...Id forgotten that Kozebrodski is quoted in the Daily News on the 1st, and the report from a witness named Abraham Heshberg.....both he and Kozebrodski say it was 12:45am when they heard a woman had been killed....K says he went with Diemshutz to go see the body and at that time Diemshutz lit the match. I find it interesting that Spooner initially gives a time when he is there to see the body at around the same time,...which is when she is supposedly first being accosted by BSM.

Just thought that was interesting while Im looking for that quote about a red haired man. But this other stuff is quite interesting and distracting as well.

The Daily Telegraph of the 1st says that 10 minutes before she was found dead she was seen with a flower on her breast by a PC....which would make the time of her being found cut, once again, 12:45am. In the same article Diemshutz says he was there at 1am exactly though.

Ill keep looking Tom and try not to get sidetracked with these great stories Im coming across.

Cheers

[Jeff Leahy]

I am now confused Michael, are you suggesting Deimschutz timing was in fact late?

Pirate

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Perry,

Virtually no one, including the police, carried timepieces. Doctors were an exception which is why we know when Blackwell arrived.

Pirate,

Consider the following about Pipeman:

The Star - THE major source for these newspaper clippings - stated that Schwartz's story was not corroborated. That means they were unaware of any other witness, which would obviously include Pipeman.

Abberline - Following Swanson's report, Abberline replies that he questioned Schwartz thoroughly about whether or not BS Man and Pipeman were known to each other, but Schwartz didn't know. Had Pipeman come forth, Abberline would have certainly known about it and probably would have personally interrogated him. He would then know if he knew BS Man or not.

Swanson - he was compiling a summary of the most important witnesses in the Berner Street case. He mentions they looked for Pipeman under the name 'Lipski' and reports they failed. Had Pipeman been found or come forth, his witness testimony would have been huge and would have received the same summary treatment as Schwartz's.

At the risk of being called dogmatic again, I'd say we can call it a FACT that Pipeman had not been identified by the police as late as October and apparently at no time after.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

I am now confused Michael, are you suggesting Deimschutz timing was in fact late?

Pirate

To address this for both your post and Toms remarks, there is evidence given at that early stage, Oct 1, by more than one witness, Kozebrodski and Spooner....including Fannys claim she was at her door looking out at 1am and saw no-one....that they were alerted to a cut woman at approx 12:45am.

Consider again their position... explaining a dead woman on their property in the midst of a killing spree thought to be carried out by a European Jew, while 28 Jewish men were still in the club and on premises. Consider Blackwells extension of his estimate to a time 10 minutes earlier than the 20 he first suggests......its almost the same time as the early discovery statements. The only watch on anyone at that scene first arrives wth Blackwell at 1:16am.....Diemshutz stated he checked the Post Office clock I think......could he have fudged that?

Is it possible that 10 or more minutes were spent doing "damage control" before seeking a copper....my bet is yes, thats possible.

Cheers PJ.....still searching for the red haired man.

[Tom_Wescott]

Perry,

You contradict yourself. Spooner was called to the club by Diemschutz and Koz running past him yelling that there'd been a murder. Obviously, this was not at 12:45. Either that, or the Diemster wasn't clued in on the huddle session in the club.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Perry,

You contradict yourself. Spooner was called to the club by Diemschutz and Koz running past him yelling that there'd been a murder. Obviously, this was not at 12:45. Either that, or the Diemster wasn't clued in on the huddle session in the club.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

So I did, I see your point Tom. But I think thats only a problem if we stick to the approximate timing verbatim....which I dont believe is practical. If the body is found when Koz says it was in that Oct 1st article, which is around 12:45am, and Spooner did make an error when he first says he was by the body around 12:40-45....then the club has the time to doctor a story before heading out to get cops and alerting Spooner to whats happened.

Lets say Diemshutz finds the body near 12:45...he runs in, comes back with the Club members including Koz and Eagle......what time do we know have, maybe 12:46? If they dont leave the yard until 1am or just after, Spooner is alerted and comes into the yard at maybe 1:03-4-5 ish? That still works for subterfuge time for the Club, and it has everyone onsite by the body at the approximate times they state.

When adding that Fanny states early that she "must have" seen someone if they entered or left that yard at around 1am but didnt...thats supports the story the club members give that they didnt head out until after Diemshutz finds the body at around 1am. If he actually arrived at 12:45, Fanny was most likely not at her door then, but it would explain why she saw or heard nothing at around 1am.

The timings are the worst here....but I think with reason they can be workable.

Cheers Tom.

[Tom_Wescott]

Perry,

But the body wasn't found at 12:45pm. So it's a moot point.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Perry,

But the body wasn't found at 12:45pm. So it's a moot point.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

According to Diemshutz and his timing....Schwartz and his timing, and Brown and his possible sighting of Liz. Am I certain that she wasnt found earlier than 1am.....nope, neither should you be. As you said yourself, no-one had timepieces until Blackwell arrives....skew a few minutes on some approximate times and use Blackwell as the fixed point....and its possible I think that she was discovered .....perhaps still by Diemshutz, but before 1am.

Spooner was approximating, Schwartz must have been, and Diemshutz says his time was based on a public clock's time.

Whats clear to me is that there is potential for anyone we know that was affiliated with the club, and one we have reason to wonder why he was there,....the potential for fabrication of times and actions or events. There is also a catalyst for them to want to be seen as uninvolved in any way with that murder. The suspect at large slicing women up is supposedly thought to be a European Jew by the end of September ....and that club had over 2 dozen onsite the night Liz is killed. If they are looked at sideways about this murder, might they also be suspected of the other Ripper slayings as well?

Without Israel quite frankly they were screwed circumstantially. No-one else saw the victim after 12:35ish when the PC does, (other than perhaps JB....did you know the name of the 3rd throat slitter that night was John Brown?...thats 2 James Browns in one night!!)....which would leave wide open the possibility that someone from the club entered the yard after Eagles entrance, and was alone with Liz in there. Fanny sees no-one near or coming from the yard...other than Leon walking past at around 12:55am....attesting to the fact she was indeed at a vantage point to see the club gates at 12:55am.....so wouldnt she also see and hear Diemshutz closing in? Does this mean if Schwartz told the truth that both Liz and BSM are no-where to be seen at 12:55am?

I look at it all this way......I have to assume that the man that killed Annie is a rare type of killer, so this "Jack" fellows hype fits that crime. I have to assume with Liz Stride however that she was murdered, in a manner not uncommon to the area and the times.

So im flexible when it comes to claimed specific minutes on the dial... in some cases. Not Blackwells, because as I said, hes the fixed point in time with the first timepiece we are aware of onsite.

When there is clear reasons for deceit by the Club, and the means to achieve that by virtue of their being the sole discoverers of her body....fudging what time that really happened and maybe a precursor story makes all the worry go away.

Im taking a break from article searching...but I will try to find it for you. Just not tonight.

Cheers Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

According to Diemshutz and his timing....Schwartz and his timing, and Brown and his possible sighting of Liz. Am I certain that she wasnt found earlier than 1am.....nope, neither should you be.

Diemshutz was certain about the time. Fanny Mortimer saw Leon Goldstein walk by a few minutes before the body was discovered. Goldstein confirms this was just before 1 am. It all fits with Diemshutz's timing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott