Two

[Jeff Leahy]

How could Schwartz know if they knew each other? They may have, they may not have. Nothing occurred on the street to allow Schwartz to say without reservation that they knew each other.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

But surely if Schwartz claimed that BSM shouted 'Lipski' to Pipeman then there is a suggestion that they were working together or knew each other?

If he wasn't certain they new each other then surely the inferance would be that BSM was shouting at him/Schwartz?

Pirate

[Tom_Wescott]

Schwartz never did say that BS Man called out to Pipeman. And even then, it would just be a guess on Schwartz's part.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Archaic]

Schwartz in the Records

Regarding the Holborn hairdresser John Schwartz, I think after further discussion it was agreed that his original name was Jacob, not Israel (just like Jacob/John Pizer), that he had been in the Holborn area since 1881, and that he married in late 1889:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=804&page=5

I think the Israel Schwartz who is known to have lived in the immediate neighbourhood from at least 1890 onwards (until his death in 1936) - his earliest known address being in Brunswick Street - is a strong candidate. Particularly as he is the only Israel Schwartz in Ancestry's index of the whole 1891 census. He also fits the bill in one other respect - according to family information he spoke Yiddish all his life, and in his old age he was barely able to communicate with his English-speaking grandson. (But unfortunately there seems to be no family tradition that he witnessed a Ripper murder.)

The only definite discrepancy is that he was born in Poland/Russia, not Hungary.

The problem is that it's going to be very difficult to prove beyond doubt that any candidate is the right Israel Schwartz. The only really tangible thing we know about the witness is that he lived at 22 Ellen Street immediately after the Stride murder. The hope would have to be that he stayed there for a year or two, and left some record that would identify him with the known Israel Schwartz (d. 1936) or someone else. Several people have looked for such a record without success, and I think it's fair to say there is none in any of the obvious places. But maybe with luck one may turn up in the future.

Hi, Chris, thank you for that info about Schwartz.

But I'm thinking that the fact that Israel Schwartz came from Poland/Russia rather than from Hungary is a problem...

Most of Poland was under Tsarist rule, and Hungary was part of the Dual Monarch of Austria-Hungary under the Hapsburg Emperors.

Even though precise national borders sometimes fluctuated over the years due to politics & war, particularly the borders of Poland, I'm not sure how any one could mix up the two Empires.

>>Here's a good map of the region c.1910: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...ngary_1911.jpg

Did Schwartz the witness ever name his actual town of origin, or just "Hungary"?

It seems like the police would at least have asked him for his papers in order to confirm his identity, wouldn't they?

Thanks again & best regards, Archaic

[Chris]

Did Schwartz the witness ever name his actual town of origin, or just "Hungary"?

It seems like the police would at least have asked him for his papers in order to confirm his identity, wouldn't they?

I think I'm right in saying that the description of Schwartz as a Hungarian comes only from the reports in the Star, not from the police records. I think that makes it a bit more plausible that there could have been a misunderstanding.

[Archaic]

Schwartz's National Origins

Hi, Chris, thanks.

If you look at the map, the area towards Galicia is a possibility; it borders both Hungary & Poland.

It was an area of fluctuating borders; Galicia was part of Austria-Hungary until WWI, then much of it became Poland.

I guess it's possible that the police might not have been too particular in their foreign geography, but I would still think Schwartz must have had some kind of papers, don't you?

Thanks again, Archaic

[Tom_Wescott]

I think I'm right in saying that the description of Schwartz as a Hungarian comes only from the reports in the Star, not from the police records. I think that makes it a bit more plausible that there could have been a misunderstanding.

Correctomundo.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

It would be interesting to know whether Schwartz's statement was given in Yiddish or in Hungarian or Polish. Im assuming Goldstein spoke only Yiddish?.....Is that something you could confirm Tom?

If Wess provided Israels translation in addition to Goldstein's, just wondering if he speaks 3 or 4 languages, or 2.

Best regards.

[Jeff Leahy]

Schwartz never did say that BS Man called out to Pipeman. And even then, it would just be a guess on Schwartz's part.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Yes I do appreciate this Tom. Schwartz was clearly confused by what happened.

However, I’m trying to deal with the basic underlying conundrums of the two-recorded events.

The simple fact of the matter is that Pipeman and BSM either new each other or they did not? And given the FACTS of the two accounts ie BSM was heading down Berner Street from Commercial Road, in which time Schwartz must have had plenty of time to access the situation, he did NOT, he did NOT see BSM communicate with Pipeman.

So either there was a MAJOR conspiracy theory, with BSM and Pipeman working together…which would have taken time....or there was NOT….

And logic dictates that Schwartz made a mistake, somewhere in his panic, he miss read the situation and ran!

Because if BSM and Pipeman were connected then BSM would have come from the same direction as Pipeman….simples dot com

He didn’t

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

Good Morning all

Something has been nagging away all night. A possibility not yet mentioned.

As per my last post, I am convinced that both accounts suggest that BSM was walking in the same direction as Schwartz and stopped to talk to Liz (who probably propositioned him). As he was coming from a different direction its improbable that Pipeman and BSM were known to each other.

If they were, logic dictates that BSM would have come from the Board house or the Nelson Pub…180 degree change of angle.

However clearly there must have been doubt in Schwartz mind about who shouted what and to whom. As in the police statement it clearly says: “Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other”.

This suggests to me that Abberline was also not clear about what Schwartz meant and pressed him on the matter…..something like “were the two men together?”

So all we have in both accounts is someone shouting and a quarrel. And the probability that someone shouted ‘Lipski’.

So what if the shout of ‘Lipski’ wasn’t a warning or aimed at Schwartz or Pipeman but simply part of the quarrel?

What if the shout was not aimed at Schwartz or Pipeman but was aimed at LIZ Stride?

What if during the quarrel Liz said something like ‘ Get your filthy hands off me Lipski!” to which BSM replied “LIPSKI!!!” grabbed her by the shoulders and forced her into the yard in a rage at being insulted he drew his knife and cut her throat…

Of course Schwartz only describes Liz screaming three times but he describes them stopping and talking but does not hear what they say so we can presume that he only hears the louder elements of the quarrel.

Anyway another possibility…

Pirate

[c.d.]

Hi Pirate,

If you shout at someone, you are generally looking at them. I think the implication here is that Schwartz saw the BS man looking at him when the shout of Lipski was made.

c.d.

[perrymason]

Hi Pirate,

If you shout at someone, you are generally looking at them. I think the implication here is that Schwartz saw the BS man looking at him when the shout of Lipski was made.

c.d.

As I recall there is a quote that states the "Lipski" was directed at him when he looked back over his shoulder.... having passed the couple while Liz was on the ground and he was apparently helping her up.

That means he didnt look straight ahead and mind his own business as he passed or after, and thats why the call was directed at him....I wonder if "theatrical" means dressed in a manner that was overtly Jewish, like a man playing a Jewish man on stage.

I still suggest that the street probably isnt where this occurred,... if at all,....but....

Cheers

[smezenen]

Smezenen (Gazundheit!),

We do not know what caused the single bruise to Stride's chest, but I can't see it coming from a fall to the ground. We do know what caused the bruising to her shoulders because the doctors were able to make out finger marks. What is interesting here is that the Star report has BS Man grabbing Stride by the shoulder, which fits in with the bruising. Swanson's summary gives us no detail of where she was grabbed. The bruising was over both shoulders, so BS Man would have had to turn Stride around, grab her by both shoulders, squeeze very tightly for a period of time before throwing her to the ground. This is not impossible, as Stride was older and weak and would have bruised relatively easily, so a good tight squeeze for a few seconds might have done the trick.
When reading Swanson's report, most of us probably imagine BS Man grabbing Stride by the arm, because that's the most normal method. But Schwartz specifically told the Star that she was grabbed by the shoulder, and later the doctors would discover this distinct bruising. It could be coincidence, but since the bruising occurred right around the time of death, I'd say there's a decent change BS Man afflicted it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,
Agreed about the marks over her shoulder, I just didnt have time the other night to get too far into the reports and was taking a generalized aproach due to the vagueness of most of the descriptions.

I believe they where made by BSM, the marks over the shoulder when he grabs her and the mark on her chest when he pushes her or hits her in the chest to knock her to the ground. No bruising on the back becouse she lands on her butocks which is a fatty part and more cushioned by clothing.

Another possibility as I read your post. You write "BS Man would have had to turn Stride around, grab her by both shoulders, squeeze very tightly for a period of time before throwing her to the ground." In this scenario she would be falling face first and maybe she strikes her chest against something on the ground producing the chest bruise.

[smezenen]

Welcome aboard Smezenen

I don’t see why anyone would dismiss your conclusion. Not enough information to be certain, seems a very reasonable statement and one only to often faced when examining this case.

I would however be interest in your opinion. Is it possible, given both accounts above (Star and police), that Schwartz witnessed a brief struggle between BSM and Stride. And in your opinion could BSM have been Strides murderer?

Many thanks for a well considered and interesting post.

Yours Pirate

PJ,
Since her dead body is found about 15 minutes later I think its very likely that BSM killed her. I believe what Schwartz told police is what he believes he saw.
I wouldn't completly trust the press in any story. Then as now the press industery will spin the story to create as much sensationalism as possible in order to sell more papers. Proof comes when we see reporters faking JTR letters and sending them to their editors to be published in the paper. The basic facts are there in the story but sometimes you have to dig them out from under the papers agenda. in other words take the news papers facts for what they are and only trust the basic information you find in them. when they contradict the police report I tend to put more confidence in the police report becouse they dont have the same agenda.


here is my SPECULATION on BSM as strides killer.
If BSM is JTR and Schwartz saw him with Stride it may explain why he kills Stride and abandons the kill before doing any mutilation. He is too far into his actions to stop becouse he has already acosted her. He realizes someone has seen him and needs to get away but he cant leave her breathing becouse she can identify him. He only killed her to get rid of a witness then went looking for a safer place and new victim.

[Archaic]

Knocked To the Ground?

Regarding Broad-Shouldered Man knocking the woman to the ground, perhaps as she went down she managed to end up in a more or less "crouched" position where she still had one or both feet under her, and that's why there aren't more bruises.
Her long skirts would have concealed her precise physical position from Schwartz's view, especially as it he witnessed this scene at night.

I would imagine that an impoverished Whitechapel prostitute would unfortunately have been struck by other men in the past, and might know that it's safest to go down immediately in order to avoid a serious beating.

So BS Man might have truly have grabbed, struck, or shoved her, but perhaps she instinctively sank to the ground just to save herself from further abuse- in which case it was more of a "controlled" fall, which might not have left visible bruises other than where he grabbed her.

Schwartz's statement that she "screamed three times but not very loudly" would tend to support this, because it suggests that she was not screaming loudly in order to summon strangers to her aid, but "screaming" just enough to convince Broad-Shouldered Man to desist.

Best regards, Archaic

[smezenen]

Seems there are more possibilities to not produce a bruise than there are to produce one.