Two

[perrymason]

Diemshutz was certain about the time. Fanny Mortimer saw Leon Goldstein walk by a few minutes before the body was discovered. Goldstein confirms this was just before 1 am. It all fits with Diemshutz's timing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Diemshutz is the club steward and Goldstein though he walks past is apparently a club member. That Fanny saw Leon only confirms his statement that he was there at that time, not that Israel arrived after him...if a member of the club wanted to adjust certain facts about the minutes leading up to and after Liz Strides death, they would have had ample opportunity to do so.

According to their stories, and timings, many of the club members and no outside people stood around Liz Stride just after Diemshutz went inside to tell them what he found. He says that was 1am. Goldstein says he walked past around 12:55-56am, which can be confirmed by Fanny Mortimer.

What cannot be confirmed within the evidence is that anyone heard or saw Diemshutz approaching the gates in the minutes before 1am. Not Fanny Mortimer who was in fact at her door and able to see down the street at 12:55ish am.

Just because Diemshutz said he was sure it was 1am.....that doesnt make that a fact. It means he is trying to establish his arrival time as 1am. If he had any reason to confuse some details about times and actions taken.....say, for example for the continuation of the Club itself....as I said, he and they had ample opportunity to do so.

Cheers again Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

Michael,

Fanny heard Diemschutz go by her house and everyone in the club house (many of whom would not be card-carrying members and thus have no motive to lie).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Michael,

Fanny heard Diemschutz go by her house and everyone in the club house (many of whom would not be card-carrying members and thus have no motive to lie).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I know in one account she says she heard the cart. And my bet is that of the 28 or so people onsite that were singing upstairs, all were "card" carriers. The only witness we are not sure of the affiliations is Israel...and again, Im guessing that this will someday be confirmed..he attended the meeting that night.

Which would make all the relevant witnesses from 12:40 until Spooner enters the yard, Club members. Fanny is only sporadically at her door and is only useful for what she saw when at her door, and heard.

The opportunity existed for them to tailor the details of their discovery to suggest an off site altercation with a non club member just prior to her death.

The real question isnt could they have done it....its would they have done it. Are there reasons that exist for the club to not want this murder to be seen as connected to the club in any way....or to a European Jewish man....which the authorities thought "Jack" was at that time.

Could they get away with slight altercations in times and locations of sightings....even though the murder happened right under their noses in their own yard?

Seems to me that they may have.

All the best Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

Michael,

You draw a lot of conclusions based on little or no information. Your lack of knowledge on the club, for instance. On any given Saturday, their numbers are swelled by casual visitors and new invitees. Even if all 20+ people there were card-carrying members (which they wouldn't have been), to align all of them in a conspiracy to lie to police would have taken a miracle. And then there's Fanny's evidence to consider. The fact is that Diemschutz discovered the body at 1am and we have zero reason to doubt that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Michael,

You draw a lot of conclusions based on little or no information. Your lack of knowledge on the club, for instance. On any given Saturday, their numbers are swelled by casual visitors and new invitees. Even if all 20+ people there were card-carrying members (which they wouldn't have been), to align all of them in a conspiracy to lie to police would have taken a miracle. And then there's Fanny's evidence to consider. The fact is that Diemschutz discovered the body at 1am and we have zero reason to doubt that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

No need to ram this down your throat Tom.....Ill just re-phrase that last bit so its accurate....." The records show that Diemshutz stated he discovered the body at 1am. That is corroberated by no other submitted evidence, nor is it disproved by any".

Cheers Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

Are you not getting this? Diemschutz's arrival home was corroborated to some extent by Fanny Mortimer and to a large extent by the numerous individuals at the club who knew when he arrived.

Is it possible he arrived earlier, found the body, and convinced a couple of dozen individuals to perjure themselves? Sure. But is there a single shred of evidentiary reason to assume this was the case? Not a bit.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Are you not getting this? Diemschutz's arrival home was corroborated to some extent by Fanny Mortimer and to a large extent by the numerous individuals at the club who knew when he arrived.

Is it possible he arrived earlier, found the body, and convinced a couple of dozen individuals to perjure themselves? Sure. But is there a single shred of evidentiary reason to assume this was the case? Not a bit.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Im pretty sure I made it clear in my last post I didnt believe there was evidence of collusion of any kind.....I do suggest that there is justifiable suspicion that the opportunity and the reason to do so were present.

I could care less if every club member said Louis arrived right at 1am.....because its only Club men making that call. And its only Diemshutz and the Club members primarily who have anything to say about what happened in the yard and just outside it, very near the murder time.

Im not "getting" that these are facts Tom...Im getting that they are statements from men who stood much to lose if the spin on Liz Stride was anti-Club. She was found in their yard some 4 yards from an open kitchen door with Mrs D in there at the time and 28 Socialist Jews singing upstairs...some reasonably can be assumed to be charaterized as "anarchists". At least the police thought so....so did the neighbors when they referred to men in the yard after 1am on Saturday meeting nights as "low".

A woman is found just inside the walled compound of a Hells Angels Clubhouse. 28 Angels are inside, all were said to be watching a sports event in the main room...by themselves. No outsiders. A woman is dead just inside the gates and is found by the President of this Club as he arrives home with more beer. Her throat is cut.

That premise doesnt even have the tantalizing bit about her wounds not matching in any way a series of unsolved murders that were ongoing in the immediate area, but it does place the same kind of men in the same kind of position with the same things at stake.

Could they fudge the facts to keep the cops from being a pain in the a**, maybe confiscating some stuff resulting in more charges than just murder?

So maybe the the president says as he arrived a guy was running out of the gates and took off over a fence before he got a chance to get a good look. He says the time on the pizza receipt can verify his times.

Its not that Im suggesting there is evidence in plain view that supports my suspicions Tom, its that they are warranted when we are dealing with men that the police wanted shut down before this murder.

Cheers T

[Archaic]

Is it possible he arrived earlier, found the body, and convinced a couple of dozen individuals to perjure themselves? Sure. But is there a single shred of evidentiary reason to assume this was the case? Not a bit.

Hi, everyone... I think I agree with Tom here.

Speculation can be entertaining, but there's no documentary evidence to back it up.

Best regards, Archaic

[Chris]

The only witness we are not sure of the affiliations is Israel...and again, Im guessing that this will someday be confirmed..he attended the meeting that night.

I'm afraid you are well within the realms of fantasy here. Sadly it's doubtful whether evidence exists even to identify the witness Israel Schwartz. And you suppose it will someday be confirmed that he attended a particular meeting on a particular date ... ?

[Archaic]

Hi, Chris, you just raised a point that I've been meaning to ask about- is there any record of Israel Schwartz after the time of the murders, or does he simply fade into oblivion?

Did anybody ever interview him in later years?

Thanks, Arcahic

[Jeff Leahy]

If you check out the witness thread then these guys already seemed to have discussed the matter. From what I can gather concencus seems to be that Schwartz changed his name to John and became a hairdresser.

But nothing particularly remarkable and nothing to confirm that he had anything to do with the club, as far as I can see.

Pirate

[Tom_Wescott]

One Israel Schwartz is found living in the vicinity in following years, and while it's quite possible this is our man, we can be sure. London was a mere stopover for many of these immigrant Jews. Their final intended destination was America. Many of them would stay in London though. I don't believe Schwartz became a hairdresser named John.

Regarding Perry Mason's hope for some documentation proving Schwartz's affiliation with the club (something I also strongly suspect); while I'm certain we won't find anything showing him at the club on that particular Saturday, there is real hope we could find some registers relating to some of the tailor unions that the club and William Wess managed or were affiliated with. To find Schwartz's name on these registers would be a strong indicator that he was affiliated with the club.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Sorry Tom

I just don’t buy conspiracy theories, but if you found your link I guess it would be interesting. And while I agree not everything in Schwartz statement makes sense, it is on the whole quite believable, if a little muddled in the two tellings.

The fact that people’s timings don’t concur is what we would expect given the large number of accounts in this particular murder.

As a matter of interest, assuming that Schwartz statement is correct, surely it’s unlikely that BSM and Pipeman were together from Schwartz account.

Isn’t it more logical to assume that Pipeman was just another bye stander coming out the pub, rather than connected to BSM?

Pirate

[Tom_Wescott]

Pirate,

You don't have to believe in any conspiracy theory to accept that Schwartz might have frequented the Berner Street Club. After all, he lived on Berner Street and was a young Jewish immigrant. He would have been drawn to them like a magnet. That doesn't mean he lied, it just opens up the possibility since his evidence conveniently has an anti-Semite and a clearly Anglo man as the only possible killers and moves the action outside the club yard and onto the pavement.
Having said that, Schwartz could just as easily have been been affiliated with the club and still been telling the truth.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Pirate,

That doesn't mean he lied, it just opens up the possibility since his evidence conveniently has an anti-Semite and a clearly Anglo man as the only possible killers and moves the action outside the club yard and onto the pavement.
Having said that, Schwartz could just as easily have been been affiliated with the club and still been telling the truth.

Yours truly, Tom Wescott

Does Schwartz actually say that BSM or Pipeman were clearly Anglo men.

Surely he doesn't say that directly, and the cry of 'Lipski' can be interpreted in any number of different ways?

As I said, I dont think that you can draw a conclussion on pipeman and BSM's relationship from either of Schwartz accounts?

Pirate