Two

[Chris]

The only witness we are not sure of the affiliations is Israel...and again, Im guessing that this will someday be confirmed..he attended the meeting that night.

I'm afraid you are well within the realms of fantasy here. Sadly it's doubtful whether evidence exists even to identify the witness Israel Schwartz. And you suppose it will someday be confirmed that he attended a particular meeting on a particular date ... ?

[Archaic]

Is it possible he arrived earlier, found the body, and convinced a couple of dozen individuals to perjure themselves? Sure. But is there a single shred of evidentiary reason to assume this was the case? Not a bit.

Hi, everyone... I think I agree with Tom here.

Speculation can be entertaining, but there's no documentary evidence to back it up.

Best regards, Archaic

Are you not getting this? Diemschutz's arrival home was corroborated to some extent by Fanny Mortimer and to a large extent by the numerous individuals at the club who knew when he arrived.

Is it possible he arrived earlier, found the body, and convinced a couple of dozen individuals to perjure themselves? Sure. But is there a single shred of evidentiary reason to assume this was the case? Not a bit.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Im pretty sure I made it clear in my last post I didnt believe there was evidence of collusion of any kind.....I do suggest that there is justifiable suspicion that the opportunity and the reason to do so were present.

I could care less if every club member said Louis arrived right at 1am.....because its only Club men making that call. And its only Diemshutz and the Club members primarily who have anything to say about what happened in the yard and just outside it, very near the murder time.

Im not "getting" that these are facts Tom...Im getting that they are statements from men who stood much to lose if the spin on Liz Stride was anti-Club. She was found in their yard some 4 yards from an open kitchen door with Mrs D in there at the time and 28 Socialist Jews singing upstairs...some reasonably can be assumed to be charaterized as "anarchists". At least the police thought so....so did the neighbors when they referred to men in the yard after 1am on Saturday meeting nights as "low".

A woman is found just inside the walled compound of a Hells Angels Clubhouse. 28 Angels are inside, all were said to be watching a sports event in the main room...by themselves. No outsiders. A woman is dead just inside the gates and is found by the President of this Club as he arrives home with more beer. Her throat is cut.

That premise doesnt even have the tantalizing bit about her wounds not matching in any way a series of unsolved murders that were ongoing in the immediate area, but it does place the same kind of men in the same kind of position with the same things at stake.

Could they fudge the facts to keep the cops from being a pain in the a**, maybe confiscating some stuff resulting in more charges than just murder?

So maybe the the president says as he arrived a guy was running out of the gates and took off over a fence before he got a chance to get a good look. He says the time on the pizza receipt can verify his times.

Its not that Im suggesting there is evidence in plain view that supports my suspicions Tom, its that they are warranted when we are dealing with men that the police wanted shut down before this murder.

Cheers T

[Tom_Wescott]

Are you not getting this? Diemschutz's arrival home was corroborated to some extent by Fanny Mortimer and to a large extent by the numerous individuals at the club who knew when he arrived.

Is it possible he arrived earlier, found the body, and convinced a couple of dozen individuals to perjure themselves? Sure. But is there a single shred of evidentiary reason to assume this was the case? Not a bit.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Michael,

You draw a lot of conclusions based on little or no information. Your lack of knowledge on the club, for instance. On any given Saturday, their numbers are swelled by casual visitors and new invitees. Even if all 20+ people there were card-carrying members (which they wouldn't have been), to align all of them in a conspiracy to lie to police would have taken a miracle. And then there's Fanny's evidence to consider. The fact is that Diemschutz discovered the body at 1am and we have zero reason to doubt that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

No need to ram this down your throat Tom.....Ill just re-phrase that last bit so its accurate....." The records show that Diemshutz stated he discovered the body at 1am. That is corroberated by no other submitted evidence, nor is it disproved by any".

Cheers Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

Michael,

You draw a lot of conclusions based on little or no information. Your lack of knowledge on the club, for instance. On any given Saturday, their numbers are swelled by casual visitors and new invitees. Even if all 20+ people there were card-carrying members (which they wouldn't have been), to align all of them in a conspiracy to lie to police would have taken a miracle. And then there's Fanny's evidence to consider. The fact is that Diemschutz discovered the body at 1am and we have zero reason to doubt that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Michael,

Fanny heard Diemschutz go by her house and everyone in the club house (many of whom would not be card-carrying members and thus have no motive to lie).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I know in one account she says she heard the cart. And my bet is that of the 28 or so people onsite that were singing upstairs, all were "card" carriers. The only witness we are not sure of the affiliations is Israel...and again, Im guessing that this will someday be confirmed..he attended the meeting that night.

Which would make all the relevant witnesses from 12:40 until Spooner enters the yard, Club members. Fanny is only sporadically at her door and is only useful for what she saw when at her door, and heard.

The opportunity existed for them to tailor the details of their discovery to suggest an off site altercation with a non club member just prior to her death.

The real question isnt could they have done it....its would they have done it. Are there reasons that exist for the club to not want this murder to be seen as connected to the club in any way....or to a European Jewish man....which the authorities thought "Jack" was at that time.

Could they get away with slight altercations in times and locations of sightings....even though the murder happened right under their noses in their own yard?

Seems to me that they may have.

All the best Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

Michael,

Fanny heard Diemschutz go by her house and everyone in the club house (many of whom would not be card-carrying members and thus have no motive to lie).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Diemshutz was certain about the time. Fanny Mortimer saw Leon Goldstein walk by a few minutes before the body was discovered. Goldstein confirms this was just before 1 am. It all fits with Diemshutz's timing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Diemshutz is the club steward and Goldstein though he walks past is apparently a club member. That Fanny saw Leon only confirms his statement that he was there at that time, not that Israel arrived after him...if a member of the club wanted to adjust certain facts about the minutes leading up to and after Liz Strides death, they would have had ample opportunity to do so.

According to their stories, and timings, many of the club members and no outside people stood around Liz Stride just after Diemshutz went inside to tell them what he found. He says that was 1am. Goldstein says he walked past around 12:55-56am, which can be confirmed by Fanny Mortimer.

What cannot be confirmed within the evidence is that anyone heard or saw Diemshutz approaching the gates in the minutes before 1am. Not Fanny Mortimer who was in fact at her door and able to see down the street at 12:55ish am.

Just because Diemshutz said he was sure it was 1am.....that doesnt make that a fact. It means he is trying to establish his arrival time as 1am. If he had any reason to confuse some details about times and actions taken.....say, for example for the continuation of the Club itself....as I said, he and they had ample opportunity to do so.

Cheers again Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

According to Diemshutz and his timing....Schwartz and his timing, and Brown and his possible sighting of Liz. Am I certain that she wasnt found earlier than 1am.....nope, neither should you be.

Diemshutz was certain about the time. Fanny Mortimer saw Leon Goldstein walk by a few minutes before the body was discovered. Goldstein confirms this was just before 1 am. It all fits with Diemshutz's timing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Perry,

But the body wasn't found at 12:45pm. So it's a moot point.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

According to Diemshutz and his timing....Schwartz and his timing, and Brown and his possible sighting of Liz. Am I certain that she wasnt found earlier than 1am.....nope, neither should you be. As you said yourself, no-one had timepieces until Blackwell arrives....skew a few minutes on some approximate times and use Blackwell as the fixed point....and its possible I think that she was discovered .....perhaps still by Diemshutz, but before 1am.

Spooner was approximating, Schwartz must have been, and Diemshutz says his time was based on a public clock's time.

Whats clear to me is that there is potential for anyone we know that was affiliated with the club, and one we have reason to wonder why he was there,....the potential for fabrication of times and actions or events. There is also a catalyst for them to want to be seen as uninvolved in any way with that murder. The suspect at large slicing women up is supposedly thought to be a European Jew by the end of September ....and that club had over 2 dozen onsite the night Liz is killed. If they are looked at sideways about this murder, might they also be suspected of the other Ripper slayings as well?

Without Israel quite frankly they were screwed circumstantially. No-one else saw the victim after 12:35ish when the PC does, (other than perhaps JB....did you know the name of the 3rd throat slitter that night was John Brown?...thats 2 James Browns in one night!!)....which would leave wide open the possibility that someone from the club entered the yard after Eagles entrance, and was alone with Liz in there. Fanny sees no-one near or coming from the yard...other than Leon walking past at around 12:55am....attesting to the fact she was indeed at a vantage point to see the club gates at 12:55am.....so wouldnt she also see and hear Diemshutz closing in? Does this mean if Schwartz told the truth that both Liz and BSM are no-where to be seen at 12:55am?

I look at it all this way......I have to assume that the man that killed Annie is a rare type of killer, so this "Jack" fellows hype fits that crime. I have to assume with Liz Stride however that she was murdered, in a manner not uncommon to the area and the times.

So im flexible when it comes to claimed specific minutes on the dial... in some cases. Not Blackwells, because as I said, hes the fixed point in time with the first timepiece we are aware of onsite.

When there is clear reasons for deceit by the Club, and the means to achieve that by virtue of their being the sole discoverers of her body....fudging what time that really happened and maybe a precursor story makes all the worry go away.

Im taking a break from article searching...but I will try to find it for you. Just not tonight.

Cheers Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

Perry,

But the body wasn't found at 12:45pm. So it's a moot point.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Perry,

You contradict yourself. Spooner was called to the club by Diemschutz and Koz running past him yelling that there'd been a murder. Obviously, this was not at 12:45. Either that, or the Diemster wasn't clued in on the huddle session in the club.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

So I did, I see your point Tom. But I think thats only a problem if we stick to the approximate timing verbatim....which I dont believe is practical. If the body is found when Koz says it was in that Oct 1st article, which is around 12:45am, and Spooner did make an error when he first says he was by the body around 12:40-45....then the club has the time to doctor a story before heading out to get cops and alerting Spooner to whats happened.

Lets say Diemshutz finds the body near 12:45...he runs in, comes back with the Club members including Koz and Eagle......what time do we know have, maybe 12:46? If they dont leave the yard until 1am or just after, Spooner is alerted and comes into the yard at maybe 1:03-4-5 ish? That still works for subterfuge time for the Club, and it has everyone onsite by the body at the approximate times they state.

When adding that Fanny states early that she "must have" seen someone if they entered or left that yard at around 1am but didnt...thats supports the story the club members give that they didnt head out until after Diemshutz finds the body at around 1am. If he actually arrived at 12:45, Fanny was most likely not at her door then, but it would explain why she saw or heard nothing at around 1am.

The timings are the worst here....but I think with reason they can be workable.

Cheers Tom.

[Tom_Wescott]

Perry,

You contradict yourself. Spooner was called to the club by Diemschutz and Koz running past him yelling that there'd been a murder. Obviously, this was not at 12:45. Either that, or the Diemster wasn't clued in on the huddle session in the club.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I am now confused Michael, are you suggesting Deimschutz timing was in fact late?

Pirate

To address this for both your post and Toms remarks, there is evidence given at that early stage, Oct 1, by more than one witness, Kozebrodski and Spooner....including Fannys claim she was at her door looking out at 1am and saw no-one....that they were alerted to a cut woman at approx 12:45am.

Consider again their position... explaining a dead woman on their property in the midst of a killing spree thought to be carried out by a European Jew, while 28 Jewish men were still in the club and on premises. Consider Blackwells extension of his estimate to a time 10 minutes earlier than the 20 he first suggests......its almost the same time as the early discovery statements. The only watch on anyone at that scene first arrives wth Blackwell at 1:16am.....Diemshutz stated he checked the Post Office clock I think......could he have fudged that?

Is it possible that 10 or more minutes were spent doing "damage control" before seeking a copper....my bet is yes, thats possible.

Cheers PJ.....still searching for the red haired man.