Two

[m_w_r]

Mark, you forgot the "'ello, 'ello, 'ello..." that inevitably precedes the "What's all this then?"

Yes, this is true. Which goes to show just how language-rich the machinery of the state could be. No wonder Schwartz was confused.

Here is the William Wess Wiki page: http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/William_West

Regards,

Mark

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Mark

Clearly Wess would have been known to the police given his connection to the club. However I can see nothing that connects him to Schwartz, or any proof that Schwartz was a club member or that Wess was a translator in police matters.

Pirate

[John Bennett]

Here is the William Wess Wiki page: http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/William_West

Regards,

Mark

And the relevant bit that goes a long way to confirming his 'labour sympathies':

Wess was active in the Hackney branch of the Socialist League and acted as secretary of the strike committee during the strike of East London tailors in 1889. From 1889 he was reponsible for the typesetting of the Freedom newspaper and he became manager of the Freedom office in 1891, when he was recorded as living at 108 Brady Street Dwellings, Brady Street with relatives. He became the editor of 'Arbeiter Fraint' in 1895.
He was also secretary successively of the International Tailors, Machinists and Pressers' Trade Union, and the United Ladies and Mantle Makers' Association. Withdrawing from his activities in the Jewish trade union movement at the beginning of the twentieth century, he took up employment as a book-keeper in a tobacco factory, joined the Labour Party in the 1930s and was involved in Spanish solidarity work in 1936.

JB

[Jeff Leahy]

The connection with Schwartz being?

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm not suggesting there was another pub - I'm suggesting there is a contradiction between the sources. It's no way round that contradiction to keep repeating "but the Star says so-and-so".

I don't think 'contradiction' is the right word at all, since Swanson does not put Pipeman at a contradictory location. He doesn't state specifically where Pipeman was standing. What he does do is provide enough information to infer that Pipeman was standing on the club side of the street but further up from BS Man. This could reasonably be the beerhouse. Whether we like it or not, the only other contemporary source for information on this event comes from the Star newspaper, and the Star tells us Pipeman was around a 'pub', which could only be the Nelson beerhouse. Where you see contradiction, most of the rest of us see corroboration, and since there's nothing in the evidence of any strength to suggest Pipeman was standing anywhere else, I don't really see a reason to further confuse the issue with semantics.

Pirate,

Antonio Sironi wrote that essay. I believe Coram was the illustrator. I used to discuss this matter at length with Antonio on a different website and was delighted when his essay was published. However, I don't agree with some of his points. For instance, we can't disqualify Schwartz on the grounds that his evidence doesn't fit with our preconceived notions of what the Ripper was supposed to act like. It's possible our preconceptions are wrong or that Stride wasn't killed by the Ripper or even that the man Schwartz saw was not Stride's killer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Clearly Wess would have been known to the police given his connection to the club. However I can see nothing that connects him to Schwartz, or any proof that Schwartz was a club member or that Wess was a translator in police matters.

Pirate

I would be amazed if Wess was working with the police. The police did not care for socialist Jews and socialist Jews did not care for the cops. Wess stated to the Echo reporter that Schwartz was not a member of their club, and this is almost certainly correct, since most of the people who attended the club were not card carrying members. There is no evidence that Schwartz and Wess knew each other, but it's a theory I've had for a few years that Perry Mason has ran with. We know that Wess escorted Leon Goldstein to the same police station Schwartz went to (Leman Street) and acted as his interpretor. We know Schwartz took his own interpreter, which in the past I've theorized could have been Wess. But there's no proof this was the case.

The Star tells us that Schwartz had spent the day moving from his lodgings on Berner Street. From the description of his dress (like that of a theater person) we can also infer that Schwartz was not an hassidic Jew. The IWEC happened to be THE place on Berner street that offered temporary lodgings to immigrant Jews, so it's not a stretch to suppose that Schwartz had been lodging with them. Even if he were not, the club would have held a great appeal to a young Jewish immigrant, where other people of his language and culture could be found. In fact, I'd be amazed if Schwartz were not intimately familiar with the club and many of its members. Having said that, there is yet no evidence that this was the case.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Chris]

Tom

I'd be grateful if you didn't make accusations about "[confusing] the issue with semantics". I am no more indulging in "semantics" than you are.

You say Swanson "[provides] enough information to infer that Pipeman was standing on the club side of the street but further up from BS Man".

But according to you, when he wrote "the man on the opposite side of road" Swanson meant Schwartz, not the man with the pipe. I don't accept that for a moment, but if it were the case, the sum total of the information Swanson gave about the man would be that (1) on crossing the street Schwartz saw him standing lighting his pipe and (2) when Schwartz walked away he followed him. And then there is a description of him. There is nothing in that that would allow us to infer the man's position, unless we first made a lot of other assumptions about what happened.

[Tom_Wescott]

Chris,

Sorry if I offended you. I just think it's too easy to get hung up on every word of a report that was obviously written quickly and not with the best of care. We all do it. Obviously, where there is a glaring inconsistency or contradiction between the Star report and Swanson's (such as knife vs pipe), I would unhesitatingly side with the more official source. But in this case, I don't see any true inconsistency.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

It is great to see some interest coming round in the why do we bother sorting Schwartz out, and just who the hell is Wess in all this.....just thought Id add that Wess, the editor of the Arbeter Fraint and to our knowledge merely a tenant in the yard, with no obvious attachments to the club hierarchy or ownership as a member, speaks first at Liz Strides Inquest.

One might wonder why a man who has no direct link with the clubs ownership or operation, and who had left Dutfields Yard some 40 minutes before Diemshutz even finds Liz, would be asked to speak first. Not the man that finds her, the club steward, the last policeman to see her, Israel Schwartz or James Brown,...Wess.

This might figure into the question as to whom and how many of the attendees or witnesses might Wess have translated for aside from Goldstein.

His importance may be as a semi-official translator. Which would mean that Schwartz could have had a translator available in the court during the Inquest.......but no need when he isnt even mentioned, and certainly not called.

Best regards all.

[Tom_Wescott]

just thought Id add that Wess, the editor of the Arbeter Fraint and to our knowledge merely a tenant in the yard, with no obvious attachments to the club hierarchy or ownership as a member, speaks first at Liz Strides Inquest.

Where did you get all this? Wess was not editor of the AF in 1888, he was he secretary to the club. You could say he was the leader of the IWEC at this time. I have a copy of his membership card, in fact. You're way, way off base with this stuff.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Where did you get all this? Wess was not editor of the AF in 1888, he was he secretary to the club. You could say he was the leader of the IWEC at this time. I have a copy of his membership card, in fact. You're way, way off base with this stuff.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

I thought he used the word "editor", instead he does use the word "overseer", and I know Kranz's role, but I thought I recalled Wess being more hands-on as well.... and I had forgotten he claimed that he was a member of the club,... but he doesnt say its as its Secretary.

"William Wess [West], who affirmed instead of being sworn, was the first witness examined, and, in reply to the coroner, he said: I reside at No. 2, William-street, Cannon-street-road, and am overseer in the printing office attached to No. 40, Berner-street, Commercial-road, which premises are in the occupation of the International Working Men's Education Society, whose club is carried on there. On the ground floor of the club is a room, the door and window of which face the street. At the rear of this is the kitchen, whilst the first floor consists of a large room which is used for our meetings and entertainments, I being a member of the club. "

Now this bit is interesting...

"The printing-office, which does not communicate with the club, consists of two rooms, one for compositors and the other for the editor. On Saturday the compositors finished their labours at two o'clock in the afternoon. The editor concluded earlier, but remained at the place until the discovery of the murder."

In the first he says he is the overseer of the print shop and a member of the club, and then he says the print shop and club dont communicate.

Diemshutz is the steward, correct? His wife is the office manager? So how does Wess run the club?

Not that I hate the idea, just that I dont see that in print.

All the best Tom

[Jon Guy]

"[I]The printing-office, which does not communicate with the club, consists of two rooms, one for compositors and the other for the editor.

Hi Mike

I think "not cummunicating" in this instance means that you had to leave the Club to get to the printing office.

[Tom_Wescott]

By 'not communicating', they simply mean the printing office is a detached building, not physically connecting to the clubhouse. The Arbeter Fraint was most certainly the newspaper of the IWEC and affiliated directly with it. Wess was secretary of the club and as such oversaw the workings of the paper, but Krantz was editor at that time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Diemshutz is the steward, correct? His wife is the office manager? So how does Wess run the club?

Sorry, missed this before. Diemschutz oversaw the care of the property. He was also part owner of the house, if I'm not mistaken. Wess oversaw the machinations of the club. The irony of anarchists is that because they don't believe in dictatorships and rules and leaders, they are rarely effective in organization.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Pirate,
Antonio Sironi wrote that essay. I believe Coram was the illustrator. I used to discuss this matter at length with Antonio on a different website and was delighted when his essay was published. However, I don't agree with some of his points. For instance, we can't disqualify Schwartz on the grounds that his evidence doesn't fit with our preconceived notions of what the Ripper was supposed to act like. It's possible our preconceptions are wrong or that Stride wasn't killed by the Ripper or even that the man Schwartz saw was not Stride's killer. Yours truly, Tom Wescott

Ah then my mistake, because Jon started with the name Jane Coram, I had made an incorrect presumption. I trust Mr Sironi will except my apology.

It strikes me that there are only a few possibilities with regards Schwartz Statement. Each of which have there own problems.

a) Schwartz Statement was a deliberate fabrication.

I don't see any hard evidence for this. If Wess was Schwartz interpreter why did he not mention it in court?

b) Schwarz saw another incident and couple not Stride and JtR.

Its really to hard to believe that he would have ID'd Stride if this was the case, he was pretty certain.

c) He saw Stride attacked by someone else in a seperate incident.

In which case we would have seen evidence of an earlier assault. We do Not.

d) Schwartz witnessed Strides murder.

Could Stride have screemed three times while having her throat quickly cut?

Well there it is four possibilities...

For what its worth if Stride was attacked by JtR I dont see that it is that different from the other five...

She propositioned Jack for sex and took him to the place of her death...its simply/probably just a shorter distance from the street to the place of her business....the difference is the fact that people were clearly in veiw, although in the case of Chapman there could have been people very close.

For my money the Police Statement is the element out of sink.

Pirate