Two

[Tom_Wescott]

However it also clearly states Blackwell and Philips, that the knife was probably not the knife used on Stride.

Everyone knows the Coram knife was not the knife used to kill Stride. You didn't need to post a full essay full of errors to drive that home. Just post the quotes, which Beadle manages to take out of context.

By the way, Schwartz, BS Man, Mortimer, Stride, and Pipeman were ALL on the same side of the road UNTIL Schwartz crossed over to the board school side to get away from BS Man. Pipeman then stepped out of the shadows of the Nelson beerhouse. Since Schwartz crossed the street, Pipeman was now on the opposite side from him, but the same side of the street as BS Man and Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Liz could have easily been killed with the knife that was found, Kate could have also...but she wasnt,... because she was cut up with the same knife he killed her with, and long and dull is not the type of blade used on her.
The only ties these women have to one another is a death date. Not a weapon. Or a killer. Best regards

Sorry Mike but the weapon found couldnt have been used unless blunted...

Liz was killed with a sharpe knife, end of.

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

Pirate,

Please do not pimp this Beadle nonsense. His Stride essays for The Whitechapel Society Journal are examples of the worst kind of Ripper scholarship. They are full of so many errors and excrutiatingly bad logic that for a time I thought Beadle was playing a joke on the Ripper community. For example, here's a line from the essay you pasted above:

"The weapon used to cut Stride's throat was not the same as the one used on Eddowes, a fact primarily responsible for some ripperologists querying whether Liz was a ripper victim."

Somehow, it's become a 'fact' that the Ripper used two different knives on the double event. If it wasn't a fact in 1888, how did it become one 110 years later? It hasn't, it's that simple. And show me one commentator who reached the conclusion that Stride wasn't a Ripper victim based on the 'fact' that the knife used on her wasn't used on Eddowes? Beadle just made this stuff up as he went along. You would probably do better quoting Andrew Cook than you would quoting Beadle's stuff from the WSJ.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom my post is fairly clear. I don't believe that its possible to prove that a different knife was used on Stride. I merely pionted out that there are different ways of viewing the evidence, and in deffence of Ally's statement posted this disertation that raises some alternative view points.

However it also clearly states Blackwell and Philips, that the knife was probably not the knife used on Stride.

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

PS I don’t know if anyone else has ever observed this? But there is a basic contradiction in Schwartz Statement. If Schwartz turned right from commercial road following BS man down Berner Street on the right hand side. The same side of the street as Fanny Mortimer, the same side as the pub further down the road by Fairclough street where pipeman stood.

Then he could not have seen Liz Stride standing inside Dutfield Yard unless he crossed the road earlier than his statement claims, which is after BS man starts talking to Liz. He would have had to have seen round a corner?

I guess it depends how far behind BS man he walks but surely he must have had to cross the street to see inside Dutfield yard? earlier than his statement claims.

Pirate

For the record, Schwartz's tale is not given any lip service at the Inquest, and he may well have been determined a false witness based on that. So use BSM and PM at your discretion....it is not clearly the de facto story of that night.

Also, the only objections to Liz Strides murder being caused by that long blade, dull or not, are presented by people who assume that the same man killed both women. Contrary to the previous post, its a tad ridiculous to assume he carries a few knives on him. He didnt need more than one in the 2 previous kills....nor on any future alleged kills. This is not The Butcher from the Gangs of New York...this is a local man wearing normal clothes, without a plethora of weapons on him.

Liz could have easily been killed with the knife that was found, Kate could have also...but she wasnt,... because she was cut up with the same knife he killed her with, and long and dull is not the type of blade used on her.

The only ties these women have to one another is a death date. Not a weapon. Or a killer.

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

Pirate,

Please do not pimp this Beadle nonsense. His Stride essays for The Whitechapel Society Journal are examples of the worst kind of Ripper scholarship. They are full of so many errors and excrutiatingly bad logic that for a time I thought Beadle was playing a joke on the Ripper community. For example, here's a line from the essay you pasted above:

"The weapon used to cut Stride's throat was not the same as the one used on Eddowes, a fact primarily responsible for some ripperologists querying whether Liz was a ripper victim."

Somehow, it's become a 'fact' that the Ripper used two different knives on the double event. If it wasn't a fact in 1888, how did it become one 110 years later? It hasn't, it's that simple. And show me one commentator who reached the conclusion that Stride wasn't a Ripper victim based on the 'fact' that the knife used on her wasn't used on Eddowes? Beadle just made this stuff up as he went along. You would probably do better quoting Andrew Cook than you would quoting Beadle's stuff from the WSJ.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

HI Jay

OK, lets just clarify: The suggestion of a dull rounded blade was made by Andrew Cook in a recent podcast, and is almost certainly incorrect.

There is no evidence that Stride was killed with a different knife. In the Double event Podcast Paul Begg mentions the possibility that a longer knife was used in the Eddow’s murder (also mentioned by John Guy on this thread) and this is quite possible but the exact length of the blade is not accurately ascertainable from the wounds on Stride, just approximations.

The unknown non-author mentioned is clearly Ally Ryder, and she is mistaken in stating a dull rounded blade was used, I have no intention of defending her, however the dissertation below raises some interesting points that might bail her out a little. In this Podcast Chris Scott clearly points out a Sharpe blade was used on Liz Stride, and on the whole the information contained within that podcast is pretty good, end of. However if you wish to criticize it please be specific about points and who raises them, not general.

As to the bruising, clearly it depends on how you see the event and I attach the statement given by Schwartz. This suggests that Liz was standing inside the yard (out of view of Fanny Mortimer) and was pulled towards the Street. If BS man was JtR then very little struggle needed to take place. Just a slash to the throat, that would take 2 seconds. You don’t necessarily require two separate attacks on Liz that night. If jack disappeared/escaped through Dutfield yard rather than up Berner street then Deimshutz coming down Berner Street from Commercial street might not have seen him or Schwartz running down Berner st in the opposite direction towards Ellen Street. So the whole time frame could have been very close indeed.

Thus Deimshutz could have found the body very soon after the attack described by Schwartz. Its possible that the same knife was used in both attacks, ‘Double Event’ but just as possible that JtR carried more than one knife.

I shall leave you in the capable hands of Willy the Weasel.

Yours Pirate

REINVESTIGATING MURDER: THE MYSTERY OF THE KNIFE
Bill Beadle
Investigating murder sometimes resembles picking gnat's droppings out of cow dung;- or to put it a little more salubriously, this will be a journey of exploration and whether you get to the end of it with me will depend on your perception of how logical the deductions are.

We begin on the night following the double murder of Liz Stride and Cathy Eddowes. Thirty minutes after midnight on Monday, October 1st, a warehouse operative named Thomas Coram was walking up Whitechapel road on the right-hand side going towards Aldgate when, near Great Garden street, he spied something white lying on the bottom step of number 252 on the other side of the road. Coram crossed over and found that the object was a long bladed knife with a handkerchief tied round the handle. Both the knife and the hankie were stained with dried blood.

Coram summoned Police Constable Joseph Drage who was on fixed point duty nearby. Drage later told the Stride inquest that the knife had definitely not been there an hour beforehand but:
"Some little time before a horse fell down opposite the place where the knife was found. I assisted in getting the horse up and during that time a person might have laid the knife down on the step. I would not be positive that the knife was not there a quarter of an hour previously, but I think not".
One is infuriated that Drage was not questioned more closely. Was the horse drawing a vehicle or being led? Did Drage think it more likely that the horse's owner or a passer-by had disposed of the knife? We do not know, but obviously somebody thought it necessary to divest himself of the bloodstained items. Was it Liz Stride's murderer? Well the police clearly thought it could have been otherwise they would not have brought it up at the inquest.

The weapon used to cut Stride's throat was not the same as the one used on Eddowes, a fact primarily responsible for some ripperologists querying whether Liz was a ripper victim. However, there is no reason why "jack" should not have carried more than one knife, a point endorsed by John Douglas, one of the world's leading experts on multicides (The Cases Which Haunt Us h/b p.48). Could then this knife have caused Stride's wound? Here is what Dr. Blackwell and Dr. Phillips told her inquest:

Blackwell: Although it might have possibly inflicted the injury it is extremely unlikely that such an instrument was used....

Phillips: Such a knife could have produced the incision and injuries to the neck of the deceased, but it is not such a weapon as I would have chosen.

One reason which Dr. Phillips gave for his doubts was the awkwardness of such a long-bladed knife given the position of the incision. But Dr. Blackwell's objections, while similar, was put perhaps a little more intriguingly:

"The murderer using a sharp, round-pointed instrument would severely handicap himself, as he could only use it one way".

Summed up, although the evidence did not preclude the knife from being the murder weapon, its awkwardness in relation to how the throat had been cut rendered it "improbable" (Phillips). Having established this, let us put the knife on hold for the present and concentrate on another mysterious facet of the death of Elizabeth Stride. We resume with Dr. Blackwell again:
"The right hand was lying on the chest and was smeared inside and out with blood. It (the hand) was quite open. There was no blood on any portion of Stride's clothing"

But could the blood smattered hand be explained by the use of a weapon not entirely suited to the task? With this in mind, let's bring our knife back on stage. Might it have dripped blood onto Liz's hand from her injured throat? Unlikely, as according to Professor Bernard Knight in Simpson's Forensic Medicine (eleventh edition p.38), a knife will not pick up blood from the first incision as there is a slight delay before bleeding commences. Here, there was only the one wound, and it does in fact convey the impression that it was inflicted with the wrong type of knife. First, the damaged carotid artery was not completely severed, after which the cut became deeper as it progressed, as though the perpetrator was having to adjust the pressure on the knife as he went along. Then, said Dr. Phillips, the cut: "deviated a little downwards" before becoming "superficial" and tailing off about two inches below the right angle of the jaw, at which point there was a tear in the silk scarf around Liz's neck which, added Phillips, he had ascertained as being a cut in the material.

The cut in the scarf could obviously have been caused by the knife jerking suddenly. Why? Now comes the hypothesis. As the incision tapered off so the killer again tried to reassert pressure, but his hand slipped down the blade of the cumbersome weapon and he cut himself. He swiftly wrapped a handkerchief around the wound but not before his blood had permeated the knife and dripped down onto Stride's hand.

The sudden pain and discomfort from having cut himself may well have been a contributory factor in the killer's decision to depart without mutilating the body. Later, he regained his equilibrium and with his lust now heightened by the aborted attack on Stride set off in search of another victim. But here again there is evidence that not all was well; - that something was hampering him, even though he was back using the knife he normally used. The first incision to Eddowes' throat is described as "merely superficial" while the second, like Stride's, petered out towards the end. Dr. Fredrick Brown, the City Police Surgeon, reported:

"the sheaf of the vessels on the right was just opened (by contrast with those on the left);- the (right) carotid artery had a fine hole opening. The internal jugular vein was opened an inch & a half (but), not divided".
Compare this with Nichols, Chapman and Kelly's throat wounds. The second cut to Nichols throat deeply divided the neck muscles on each side, both Chapman's throat injuries went right the way round to the extent that she was almost decapitated and Kelly's neck tissues were severed: "all round down to the bone". In fact, Eddowes' second wound was more reminiscent of Stride's single injury, and the implication is that after failing with the first incision on Cathy's throat, he had to make a special effort with the second but could not sustain it all the way.

The abdominal mutilations likewise appear laboured, the incision running in a grotesque zig-zag fashion as if the perpetrator has to have kept pausing. The effect was three wounds going in different directions, each commencing from its predecessor.

Another anomaly was the piece of Eddowes' apron which the killer had evidently used to wipe his hands and knife. In no other murder do we detect a garment belonging to the victim having been utilised. Was it pressed into service because his own handkerchief was already saturated in blood and tied on to the handle of his knife?

We return to Dr. Phillips at Stride's inquest for a final pointer. Examining the knife which had been found, he declared:
"It has been recently blunted and the edge turned by apparently rubbing on a stone. It evidently was before that a very sharp knife".
Which suggests that its owner, in a temper, had blunted it because it had injured him.

A final mystery. What would actually have motivated the killer to use a different knife on Liz Stride? One possible answer is that having had a struggle with her he used the weapon which was most conveniently to hand. But alternatively, perhaps he wanted to try out this "very sharp knife". Besides: "Nobody's consistent; they don't do everything the same every time". Says who? Says Ted Bundy, and I suppose one has to consider him an expert in a ghoulish sort of way!

SCHWARTZ STATEMENT.

12.45 a.m. 30th Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen Street [Ellen St], Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour turning into Berner Street from Commercial Road & having gotten as far as the gateway where the murder was committed, he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. He tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly. On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man lighting his pipe. The man who threw the woman down called out, apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road, 'Lipski' & then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man, he ran as far as the railway arch, but the man did not follow so far.
Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other. Upon being taken to the mortuary Schwartz identified the body as that of the woman he had seen. He thus describes the first man who threw the woman down:- age, about 30; ht, 5ft 5in[s]; comp., fair; hair, dark; small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket & trousers, black cap with peak, and nothing in his hands.
Second man: age, 35; ht., 5ft 11 in[s]; comp., fresh; hair, light brown; dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat, wide brim; had a clay pipe in his hand.

[Archaic]

Archaic, I'm more than happy to teach as well as learn. But I'm surprised you were unfamiliar with the word 'Pirate'!

Thanks, Tom... you know I lead a very sheltered existence.

Best regards, Archaic

[Tom_Wescott]

Archaic, I'm more than happy to teach as well as learn. But I'm surprised you were unfamiliar with the word 'Pirate'!

Jay,

I would imagine that Stride was very succeptable to bruising given not only her alcohol intake, but her age, weight, and nutrition. Her bruising (or lack thereof) could be very telling. As I've written elsewhere, there was no old bruising on her body, indicating that Michael Kidney was not the abusive brute many modern commentators would have us believe. Then there's the matter of no scuffing or bruising on her hands, hips, or tailbone area - something I'd expect to see if she were violently thrown down on the pavement. There was a bruise on her chest and over her shoulder. These occured either just before her murder or shortly thereafter. It's not impossible the shoulder bruising could have come from a zealous client earlier in the evening, so we can't say for sure it was her murderer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Aristocles]

Even if Liz's fall was accidental or she was not pushed with great force, I think you still have to couple it with the BS man yelling Lipski with all of it's aggressive and possible violent connotation. If you were Liz, is this somebody you would go with voluntarily into a darkened yard?

c.d.

Thanks for the reply. I am interested in whether or not there was bruising to the posterior of Stride. Heavy drinking generally makes one more susceptible to bruising. So, I was curious as to whether there are any reports as to it, re: Stride.

Her rear deltoids, shoulder blades, the back of her skull, elbows, buttocks, palms of her hands? I find nothing to make me aware of it but I could be missing it. If there was none then that makes me wonder about Schwartz's statement.

JG

[Archaic]

new word

[QUOTE=Tom_Wescott;95595]
The podcasts aren't celebrity interviews. They're intended to inform. Therefore, there should be a guard of some sort against misinformation.


Hi, Tom.

I'm not sure if it's possible to guard other adults against misinformation in the real world.

And I honestly feel that using a word like "guard" in this context betrays a bit of a siege mentality...
which is not to say that we aren't all surrounded by ignorant and misinformed persons, because
clearly we all are.


And now I just want to thank you for teaching me a brand new word, which is quoted below... I admit that I had to Google it. Apparently it dates from only 2007; pretty new. Anyway, now I know, so thanks!

I learn all kinds of things on these forums; sometimes it's even about the Ripper.

Best regards to everybody,
Archaic


[QUOTE=Tom_Wescott;95609]
You're a dumbass. And by 'you', I don't mean Paul Begg, I mean Pirate Jack. You mouthbreating asshat.

[Aristocles]

Then I suggest you quote specific’s rather than generality, especially given that the people you are discussing are, on the whole, pretty well informed on such matters. Not certain what your qualifications are, but if they come from the same source as Wescott’s you’ll require more than a hearing aid..

I have asked TWO questions. The only one to which you have made any attempt at a reply is this one:

"I have run across a few places that mention a rounded or even a dull knife. What is the genesis of this? I cannot get my mind around it based on the exegesis of Blackwell and Phillips."

Which I refined to be inclined toward the dull knife issue, after realizing that the rounded knife had nothing more to back it up than 'because one was found'...


"As for the knife, I was basing the dull notion from a "Rippercast"."

Both of these posts appeared prior to you chiming in.

As for your suggestion to quote "specifics rather than generality". Well, I posted TWO clear questions. One concerning bruising the other asking for sources of knife stories.

As for the podcast as a reference, my question concerned the sources of the story of the dull knife notion. I heard it espoused on the 'rippercast'. Now pay attention here! That is not a proper source but a purveyor of one, hopefully. I asked for SOURCES. I heard "a short, rounded, dull type of knife. . ." on the 'rippercast' and I was asking for sources. I hope that is clear.

As for discussing people, I am discussing no one. I was posing interrogatories. Two of them. You and "Tom Wescott" are discussing people. Perhaps it is reading comprehension skills that you lack.

As for discussing

What are the points you disagree with…who made them… and where are they exactly?

Pirate

PS the rounded knife is a myth and related to a knife found at the time not connected to the Stride murder. Something on which Tom and I at least are agreed.

Disagree with? I posed q-u-e-s-t-i-o-n-s with a couple of thoughts as a sort of addenda. Did you actually read the first post? I was asking for (original) sources concerning the knife story/stories and asking about the lack of mention of posterior bruising. In the case of the knife, I think I asked about the genesis of the stories.

You are neither helping nor do you intend to have an unspoken thought. It seems you feel compelled to run down other posters on this thread.

[Jeff Leahy]

Pirate Page one: surely the person who made this mistake was Andrew Cook and NOT one of the regular 'guest' podcasters?

Westcott: Perhaps, I personally couldn't say. But that's why I mentioned some of the authors these days don't know their stuff.

Cook was the author I referred to, numbnuts, and I said as much. But ANOTHER pod person from ANOTHER broadcast ALSO referenced the 'dull knife' used on Stride. So, there were two culprits, one of whom was the author Cook. The other was not an author. I'll leave your rattled brain to figure out the rest.

Yours truly, Paul Begg

Ok now we have a mysterious second non-author?

Clearly I didn't understand who you were referring too? Your posts are NOT clear, they refer to an 'Author'

When I asked a straight forward question about Andrew Cook you were evasive “Perhaps, I personally couldn’t say”

So a simple matter of making yourself clear..ie which author or non-author and which podcast, would have made the entire controversy much easier for everyone to understand.

Perhaps you would now like to enlighten everyone what you were actually going on about? and which comments you were actually trying to refer to..

Because as it stands you appear to be referring to an author involved in the Double Event Podcast?

I sometimes wonder if you know yourself...

Pirate

[Tom_Wescott]

Cook was the author I referred to, numbnuts, and I said as much. But ANOTHER pod person from ANOTHER broadcast ALSO referenced the 'dull knife' used on Stride. So, there were two culprits, one of whom was the author Cook. The other was not an author. I'll leave your rattled brain to figure out the rest.

Yours truly,

Paul Begg

[Jeff Leahy]

No Tom everything is clearly in order and as you posted it…

If the author you referred to was Cook (which would have made sense) why did you reply…” So Cook wasn’t the Culprit” ??

As to my approach to Ripper research…I don’t do JtR research! (I’ll leave that to those that do and the experts…..although I have ‘hoby’ed’ out of necessity in the Stripper case)

I do something very different…I have no pretense as a researcher.

However your squirming does seem to suggest that fore once there has been a misunderstanding, it is clearly another one of your timeless ‘foot in your mouth’ creations....

I believe the punch line is “never had an accident in your life…seen thousands”

Pirate