Elizabeth Stride ..who killed her ?

[c.d.]

Hi c.d.
Indeed, it would seem to be the case.
Interestingly, when we look at incomplete murders, like Stride, or even Nichols where mutilations began but were not completed, the killer must have considered locating any money somewhere on the body as more important that the mutilation.
Which raises another complication for those who think he was pressed for time.

Hi Jon,

I imagine that it was money up front for solicitation so it would have been easy for her killer to see where she put the money on her person.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Surely Mr and Mrs Diemschutz, as club stewards, would be responsible for the cleanliness and good order of the club, even after large meetings? I have to say that I can't see that an East End club at that time would be so fanatical about cleanliness that it would insist on a cleaner coming to the premises to scrub and sweep etc in the early hours of the morning instead of later in the daylight hours. After all, there were no Health Inspectors likely to call!

Stride wouldn't have made a fortune by cleaning rooms, a sixpence here, a sixpence there. Many people did whatever they could to survive. Annie Chapman for example made antimacassars and sold flowers. At other times she prostituted herself, perhaps for extra drink or food. I think it was the same for all the C-5. If there was an opportunity to make some money cleaning, laundering,prostituting, selling things, they did it.

Hi Rosella,

As a matter of fact Liz earned 6d for cleaning 2 rooms earlier that afternoon, and that would have covered her nights accommodations with 2d to spare. The suggestion that the club would need cleaning is based on the fact that the meeting that night drew 200 people, a large amount of whom were not members. I would imagine, and did, that there could be a need on occasions like this for Mrs D to get some assistance. Since we have evidence that she told her landlady she was working steadily for Jewish families, and since the night she is killed is just before the start of the Jewish High Holidays that year, there seems to be some symmetry throughout the evidence with her working for Jews and Jews needing some char help at that time.

It would appear that Liz did not have intentions on returning to the same rooming house she had been staying at since earlier that week...might that indicate a night cleaning job...or perhaps an overnight date with someone new.

Everything Ive suggested in this hypothetical scenario has support within the known evidence.

Regards

[Michael W Richards]

The killer was an opportunist. He sees a woman standing by herself on a street corner and assumes she's a prostitute. Sutcliffe mistook several of his victims for prostitutes, too, blinded by his misogyny and bloodlust. Perhaps he had seen her chatting to other men earlier in the night and that confirmed his suspicions? At any rate, Schwartz reports an altercation between a man and a woman outside the club, this may have resulted from the killer soliciting Stride, she rebuffs him, so he loses his cool and tries to strong-arm her into coming with him. At which point he realizes he's bungled things, but his urge to kill needs satiating (he wasn't to know he'd bump into Eddowes a little later), and he murders her.

I'm sure that its interesting matching known serial killers histories with assumed serial killer crimes Harry, but really not so conducive to obtaining any legitimate insight into a bunch of Unsolved Murders. Ill say again that a witness, in fact a few witnesses, testified that the street seemed deserted during that half hour before she was found, which suggests that she was already in that passageway loitering when she is killed. Which suggests someone from that premises, rather than someone who went onto private property looking for an "opportunity".

But you do make an excellent point supporting my contention that the very appearance of an aggressive assailant of the deceased in Israels story ensures him a seat at the Inquest. Which by all known records, sat empty.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Hi.
I also believe the killer of these women was infuriated by watching women solicit.
It is highly likely, that in the case of Tabram,the murderer saw her and a soldier enter George yard, the latter leaving, with Tabram left on the first floor landing..and the killer ventured in..
In the case of Nichols, we know she was after custom, so who knows what happened during the time she left Holland, and the time her body was discovered, it seems likely that the time frame enabled her to meet someone [ not the killer] , and was accosted after..
In the case of Chapman, we have a witness Mrs Long, who witnessed a pick up outside number 29, it is again possible this was witnessed by the killer, and he entered the passage, after the man Long saw came out. and came across Chapman in the yard..
Stride was obviously soliciting, she was seen in Berner Street, and again the killer could have moved in after Stride had ''done a trick'' hence the cashews Eddowes was seen talking to a man near the entrance to Mitre Square, if this was just a sailor attempting a pick up, and the killer saw this, he could have made his move, after she most likely rejected the sailors advances..[ hand on chest]
Mary Kelly was seen entering her room by both Mrs Cox, and Hutchinson at different times with a man. and the killer could have seen this , and waited, for his chance to move in..
A killer enticed by soliciting, could well fit his M.O.
Regards Richard,

That part in bold above is something I find particularly annoying ,...that you would feel ok writing something smearing someones reputation without having any evidence at all to do so... yet you are the first to stand by another character in this drama that was declared by officials to be "discredited". There is not one scintilla of evidence that Liz Stride was soliciting the night she is murdered, nor is there for Kate, anymore than there would be for any woman that was seen talking to a man or men on that night.

Im not a decendant of the deceased, but that doesn't mean I cant defend her reputation when its warranted. These were people...not just Whores, or Jews, or Cops, or Reporters...everyone has their own story. Might be good if we followed it instead of re-writing history.

Liz told her landlady she had been at work among the Jews prior to her return to the lodging house, and that her return was more to do with her split from her ex than anything else.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

One of the smaller details I find to be odd by its consistency across all the five? or more victims is, no money being found on their bodies.
And this, after soliciting?

There is a very simple and probable explanation in the case of Liz Stride...she has two new things with her that she obtained after leaving the lodging house with 6d.

Polly and Annie had no money...by their own admission, and Kate shows no money in the list of items found on her upon her arrest or release, and Mary was drunk and received no money from Joe B to get that way on that night.

Money has zero to do with any of these crimes, only in that the lack of it forced 3, or 4 of them, to be out in the middle of night.

Cheers

[Harry D]

I'm sure that its interesting matching known serial killers histories with assumed serial killer crimes Harry, but really not so conducive to obtaining any legitimate insight into a bunch of Unsolved Murders. Ill say again that a witness, in fact a few witnesses, testified that the street seemed deserted during that half hour before she was found, which suggests that she was already in that passageway loitering when she is killed. Which suggests someone from that premises, rather than someone who went onto private property looking for an "opportunity".

That's all we CAN do, Michael. We can only compare and contrast the murderer known as 'Jack the Ripper' to known serial killers, otherwise we're only left with baseless conjecture. The human mind hasn't changed that much in a hundred odd years. When you don't even think there was a serial killer at large, we've reached an impasse right off the bat. If we cannot find any common ground, then in the words of HAL, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore.

But you do make an excellent point supporting my contention that the very appearance of an aggressive assailant of the deceased in Israels story ensures him a seat at the Inquest. Which by all known records, sat empty.

A lot hinges on Schwartz's testimony, that much is true. If Schwartz did see what he claims he saw, then 'BS Man' is almost undoubtedly Stride's killer, as the chances of her being assaulted by a second man are slim to none. At the same time, Schwartz's story isn't corroborated by other witnesses and he wasn't called to the inquest for some unknown reason. If what you're hinting is true, i.e. someone at the club murdered Stride and Schwartz lied to cover it up, what was the motive? They thought she was spying on the socialists, right? So, in your mind, we have a conspiracy theory between the club and Schwartz to cover up her murder, but WE'RE the ones living in fantasy land?

[Michael W Richards]

[QUOTE=Harry D;347798]That's all we CAN do, Michael. We can only compare and contrast the murderer known as 'Jack the Ripper' to known serial killers, otherwise we're only left with baseless conjecture. The human mind hasn't changed that much in a hundred odd years. When you don't even think there was a serial killer at large, we've reached an impasse right off the bat. If we cannot find any common ground, then in the words of HAL, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore.

You missed the point of my remark Harry, WE DONT KNOW THESE 5 WOMEN WERE MURDERED SERIALLY, therefore any comparative study exercise between these murders and those of any identified serial killers is perhaps entertaining but useless in terms of determining any truths. If you think comparing apples with an unknown fruit has some value, then by all means carry on.
[QUOTE]

As to why anyone would offer testimony that was false and intended to direct suspicion from the club or attendees, the reputation of the club by the locals and the police might factor in to that answer. This was considered to be, by comments made during these investigations, a club of Anarchists and "low men" who cause noise disturbances for the neighbours many Saturday nights after meetings..... until past 1am.

Any serious look at the club as being culpable in any way of Strides murder would mean loss of work for Louis, Mrs D, Morris and others, and the closure of their Socialist club.

In a ghetto, in the throes of a depression, losses like that might incite some falsehoods by those who had the most to lose.

I believe that It has been proven that Wess knew Schwartz.

Cheers

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

But it would appear that if the police determined that Schwartz had lied they apparently did nothing about it that we know of. If the club was so disliked by the police it would have been quite easy for them to put pressure on Schwartz who was Jewish and an immigrant with a wife and child. He confesses (in order to save his own behind) that the club members put him up to it and the police have a golden opportunity to go after the club. Now if the lying and conspiracy is so obvious it seems that it never occurred to the police or if it did they did not pursue it. Both of those scenarios seem unlikely.

c.d.

[Harry D]

You missed the point of my remark Harry, WE DONT KNOW THESE 5 WOMEN WERE MURDERED SERIALLY, therefore any comparative study exercise between these murders and those of any identified serial killers is perhaps entertaining but useless in terms of determining any truths. If you think comparing apples with an unknown fruit has some value, then by all means carry on.

We don't know that they weren't killed by the same man either, but that doesn't stop you patronizing anyone who does examine the evidence and find this to be work of a serial killer. As I said before, Michael, if it was down to you there wouldn't have been a Yorkshire Ripper because he used different weapons and methods when dispatching his victims. Now compare that to a group of women all murdered within walking distance of one another, their throats cut and their bodies mutilated.

As to why anyone would offer testimony that was false and intended to direct suspicion from the club or attendees, the reputation of the club by the locals and the police might factor in to that answer. This was considered to be, by comments made during these investigations, a club of Anarchists and "low men" who cause noise disturbances for the neighbours many Saturday nights after meetings..... until past 1am.

Any serious look at the club as being culpable in any way of Strides murder would mean loss of work for Louis, Mrs D, Morris and others, and the closure of their Socialist club.

In a ghetto, in the throes of a depression, losses like that might incite some falsehoods by those who had the most to lose.

I believe that It has been proven that Wess knew Schwartz.

Let's assume, arguendo, that you're right about Schwartz and he was a phony witness designed to draw suspicion away from the club. This doesn't by itself prove that the murderer was connected to the club at all. It could mean that a murder had been committed on their premises and they didn't want the police to have an excuse to shut them down. At least we both cast doubts over Schwartz's credibility. I, myself, find it mighty convenient that he happened to witness an assault when no one else nearby saw or heard anything, and the only word out of the man's mouth was an anti-semitic slur. However, I draw the line at believing the entire thing was a conspiracy theory.

[Jon Guy]

We don't know that they weren't killed by the same man either, but that doesn't stop you patronizing anyone who does examine the evidence and find this to be work of a serial killer.

You will notice, Harry, that, despite his patronising advice, Michael has somehow narrowed the possible victims down to 5.

[Abby Normal]

As to why anyone would offer testimony that was false and intended to direct suspicion from the club or attendees, the reputation of the club by the locals and the police might factor in to that answer. This was considered to be, by comments made during these investigations, a club of Anarchists and "low men" who cause noise disturbances for the neighbours many Saturday nights after meetings..... until past 1am.

Any serious look at the club as being culpable in any way of Strides murder would mean loss of work for Louis, Mrs D, Morris and others, and the closure of their Socialist club.

In a ghetto, in the throes of a depression, losses like that might incite some falsehoods by those who had the most to lose.

I believe that It has been proven that Wess knew Schwartz.

Cheers

if the club or any of its members had anything to do with strides murder, wouldn't the easiest, safest thing to do is to remove her body and put it away from the club?Like with Diemshitz cart perhaps? and keep your mouths shut?Instead of some convoluted conspiracy?

And the yard was bordered by other buildings other than the club's so why the onus of guilt on them anyway?

[c.d.]

Stride's murder was the third (if you include Tabram) in a similar series in a short period of time. So it is hard to believe, as Abby says, that they felt the onus of guilt so much so that they took the extremely risk move to concoct a phony story rather than simply cooperate with the police as much as possible.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Harry,

I don't see how Schwartz can be faulted per se if nobody else saw anything. And I may be wrong but I believe that "Lipski" was the only word he understood not simply the only word directed to him. It certainly follows if Schwartz had a distinctive Jewish appearance and the B.S. man felt that he was about to interject himself into his business that that would be the slur that he uttered.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"If Schwartz did see what he claims he saw, then 'BS Man' is almost undoubtedly Stride's killer, as the chances of her being assaulted by a second man are slim to none."

Hello Harry,

Even if Liz was technically assaulted by the B.S. man, we have no way of knowing the intent behind it. For all we know, Liz might have been the instigator of the whole encounter. The B.S. man might have simply wanted to give her a good shove for mouthing off to him with no real intention of wanting to hurt her. Just a bit of dust up with a potential client. Not at all unusual.

So many factors including the whole cachous business indicate that this very well may have been the case and that her real killer came along after the B.S. man had left the scene.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

You will notice, Harry, that, despite his patronising advice, Michael has somehow narrowed the possible victims down to 5.

First Ill address this......I have narrowed the kills of one man in these cases to 2.... perhaps 3 Jon, as Ive stated many times, which yes, means someone killed at least 2 women. The most base measure of a serial killer...2 or more victims. I believe thats what the known evidence suggests...and Ive found agreement with that conclusion by many here who by virtue of their work in this field are considered experts.

Which means there are a myriad of explanations for the much larger number of murders within the remaining unsolved attacks and murders file that have nothing at all to do with serial killing or catalogued serial killing motivations.

Cheers