Elizabeth Stride ..who killed her ?

[Hunter]

Hi Mike,

Regarding your first question about butcher cuts and such, I don't know. I posted this excerpt of a BMJ article kindly provided by Stewart Evans to make a point that Frederick Gordon Brown apparently believed that the murder of Catherine Eddowes was part of a series perpetrated by a single individual - since others are seemingly under the assumption that Brown thought differently.

As to your second paragraph and point, you now claim that Baxter made the assertion of skill evidenced in both the murders of Mary Ann Nichols and Annie Chapman without any disagreement from Phillips. That is not what you had been presuming. Phillips refused to enter an opinion when asked because he was not involved in the Nichols murder investigation which had occurred in J Division territory. He would not comment on what he had not witnessed. Wynne Baxter is alone here as to this opinion concerning these two murders.

Also, when Baxter made such an assertion during his summary, the reason why Phillips offered no disagreement at the time is because he wasn't there. He had just returned from Birtley where he had been involved in the Beatmore murder investigation for a few days. He arrived at the inquest at the tail end and was not aware of anything said during the proceedings that day.

Phillips was questioned by a Press Association reporter as he arrived, but the questions centered upon any linkage to the murder at Birtley Fell and the Whitedhapel murders, and Baxter's organ specimen theory, which Phillips heard about for the first time from the reporter himself.

As far as Phillips vocalizing "his suspicions that 3 of the Canonical Five were killed by someone with those attributes,"... where did you get that from? Phillips never said how many murders he believed were committed by the same hand (at least nothing has surfaced.) That was Percy Clark in 1910. Now since Clark was Phillips' associate during the time of the murders, it could be argued that he was reflecting the views of his former boss, but Phillips still actually never said what you are crediting him with.

These are the facts. Some people need to get that straight first or it can be construed as intentionally trying to mislead people to promote an agenda. Imagine that in this field.

[Michael W Richards]

How is it that butcher cuts are thought to be synonymous with medical student or better knife skills, anyone who could butcher a pig might pass for someone with knowledge of "human anatomy", considering the similarities.

Yes Hunter, without any disagreement from Dr Phillips who was present at the time on the matter, it was Baxter who vocalized the theory that both Nichols and Chapman were committed by the same skill and knowledge level killer, as Phillips later confirms by vocalizing his suspicions that 3 of the Canonical Five were killed by someone with those attributes.
Phillips did not see either component in the Stride murder, and has been pointed out by you quoting Jon, he didn't see any correlation of the Eddowes wounds to the first 2 women's wounds.

What all the hot air has been about is a challenge to the idea that Liz Strides wounds did not reveal any skill or knowledge of her killer...not about who believed what about Eddowes, or Chapman, or Nichols. Hell, Its clear from the physical evidence to even a layman that the first 2 women were killed in almost identical fashion and by someone who possessed better than butcher skills. He knew how to kill very quickly, to access internal organs that he intends to take, and to do it very fast and in little or no light. Its marginally a case for the Eddowes inclusion too...if it weren't for that butcher grade knife hand he used.

The similarities of these two murders establish skill and knowledge precedents for the investigation going forward, and judging by the police reaction... immediately contacting medical schools, hospitals and clinics, they seemed inclined to feel the importance of that information.

There is no other time in the investigations, that being September in 1888, that the focus was put on seeking individuals with greater than average "surgical" abilities.

The reason we have a Canonical Group at all is because of the investigators straw grasping, comments and theories, not the medical opinions formed by overwhelming physical evidence. And that's too bad. I think the medical exams are very important clues as to the abilities of the respective killers.

Because now people can argue that murders that do not appear alike in any respect can be legitimately grouped under one mans knife, because the contemporary investigators couldn't solve anyone of them.

Cheers

[Hunter]

I hear crickets.

[Dr. Brown was] inclined to think that he [the murderer] was or had been a medical student, as he undoubtedly had a knowledge of human anatomy, but that he was also a butcher, as mutilations slashing the nose, etc., were butcher’s cuts.

Reckon whose nose that was?

[Hunter]

Can someone post the source for this supposed opinion of Gordon Brown?

[lynn cates]

cutting remarks

Hello CD. Well, it cannot be reached automatically--as you say. A killer may be experiencing a bad night and may have lost control of his hand. He might also DELIBERATELY use less skill.

But the main idea is that, IF one engages in certain behaviours habitually, then such are performed routinely and mechanically, and should hence exhibit a certain sameness.

Many of us, I suppose, have unwrapped packages since we were wee ones. I always tear into the paper and leave it in shreds. My wife, on the other hand, always cuts neatly and ends by folding up the paper into a rectangle. So, holding all other variables constant, IF one saw a package that was entered by either myself or my wife, a quick glance would ascertain which.

And it seems to be the case that this is why Brown, Baxter and perhaps Phillips thought Kate was done by someone else--she was a hack and mangle job, unlike the skillful cuts shown before. These led some to believe that perhaps a surgeon or butcher were involved.

Cheers.
LC

[Rosella]

Hello, I'm a newbie on this Forum!

[Wickerman]

This was Dr. Gordon Brown's opinion, who thought Eddowes was a copycat murder, and the reporter gives Dr. Brown as the source. Medical opinion does seem to favor Liz Stride as the more likely of the two to have been a Ripper victim. Although the doctors were probably wrong about Eddowes not having been related to the other murders, it does go to show that investigators were far more open-minded to such things, contrary to what some modern commentators state.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Given the fact this is second/third-hand we don't know if it is trustworthy, but taken at face value, yes Dr. Brown is given as the source, and yes this opinion may have been held by Brown also.
However, the sentence clearly attributes this opinion to Dr. Phillips.

[c.d.]

I can certainly see how differences in knife cuts can carry weight as evidence of different killers but I can just not see how that conclusion can be reached automatically as in an if A then B argument.

Can anyone who favors the idea that different knife cuts equal different killers put forth an argument that eliminates any other explanation for why there might be a difference in the cuts?

Also, it would seem if we have any other cases where different knife cuts turned out to be done by one killer that that would go a long way to putting this whole argument in the proper perspective. Can anyone site such evidence?

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

I wondered if you were alluding to the second-hand report that Phillips did not believe Stride & Eddowes were killed by the same man.

"Dr. Phillips who was called to Berner-street shortly after the discovery of the woman's body, gives (so says Dr. Gordon, who has made a post-mortem examination of the other body) it as his opinion that the two murders were not committed by the same man. Upon this point Dr. Phillips is an authority."
London Evening News, Oct. 1, 1888.

This was Dr. Gordon Brown's opinion, who thought Eddowes was a copycat murder, and the reporter gives Dr. Brown as the source. Medical opinion does seem to favor Liz Stride as the more likely of the two to have been a Ripper victim. Although the doctors were probably wrong about Eddowes not having been related to the other murders, it does go to show that investigators were far more open-minded to such things, contrary to what some modern commentators state.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

And that's why I posed the question to Mike the way I did. He has repetitively posited that Phillips linked the Nichols and Chapman murders. He did not. When coerced by Baxter to do so he refused because he had not seen or examined Mary Ann Nichols. It was Baxter and Baxter alone who linked the two murders and he had a theory to peddle... Imagine someone making assumptions based on a theory. Certainly not when it comes to this subject.

I wondered if you were alluding to the second-hand report that Phillips did not believe Stride & Eddowes were killed by the same man.

"Dr. Phillips who was called to Berner-street shortly after the discovery of the woman's body, gives (so says Dr. Gordon, who has made a post-mortem examination of the other body) it as his opinion that the two murders were not committed by the same man. Upon this point Dr. Phillips is an authority."
London Evening News, Oct. 1, 1888.

[Tom_Wescott]

I also don't think Phillips would have seen Nichols, although Dr. Haslip and Dr. Killeen might have done so as they were the doctors in the Smith and Tabram cases, which were believed connected to Nichols at the time. Haslip thought the man who killed Nichols had also killed Emma Smith.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

knives

Hello Cris. Absolutely correct.

And Baxter, as well as Phillips, thought Stride MIGHT be a victim of the same hand as the first two IF one took efficiency of killing, etc, into account.

My sole focus has been on Phillips's observation about "character of the mutilations." In my opinion, clean cuts with an experienced knife man as opposed to messy ones by an amateur. Presumably, such differences are the result of varying knife pressures based on grip, etc.

I doubt that Phillips ever saw Polly's wounds. Likely, he and Baxter relied on information provided by Llewellyn--whatever that entails.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Surely, it depends on the newbie? We're not all fresh-faced innocent young things, you know! I walked around Ripper sites as a young teenager in the 1960's before much of it was gone for ever.

Starting with 'Autumn of Terror' too many years ago to count, I read about Jack and have built up a decent library in the decades since. I enjoy reading the different theories on the Forum but I wouldn't say I was swayed by any.

You consider yourself a newbie? That's odd.

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom, you said, "Post less and research more."
I agree entirely. And of late I'm posting less and less. Not only because I'm trying to maximize my scant available time with reading and research, but because after years of the same old circular arguments with the same ol' people, one realizes it's fruitless to continue. Sometime one feels compelled to do so purely because new people have arrived that you hope don't get started on the wrong foot.

To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.
Thomas Payne

Hi Chris. Yes, I post less myself as well, although I'm procrastinating writing my second book so for the moment I'm posting more. Also, as you noted, I feel a sort of obligation because people think certain folks know more than they actually do simply because they post more than anybody else. This even leaks onto the facebook Ripper pages I post to.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Rosella]

Surely, it depends on the newbie? We're not all fresh-faced innocent young things, you know! I walked around Ripper sites as a young teenager in the 1960's before much of it was gone for ever.

Starting with 'Autumn of Terror' too many years ago to count, I read about Jack and have built up a decent library in the decades since. I enjoy reading the different theories on the Forum but I wouldn't say I was swayed by any.