Elizabeth Stride ..who killed her ?

[c.d.]

If anyone wants Liz Strides killer to have been Jack cause that agrees with the unofficial and unproven allegations of a 5 woman killing spree by Jack the Ripper, just know that you do so without any evidence or proof in legal terms that validates those opinions. None.

Best regards all.

Hi Michael,

If we had evidence or proof in legal terms of who killed Liz we wouldn't be having this debate. That same criteria holds true for the non-Jack camp as well.

c.d.

[Celesta]

What we know is that two witnesses, only one whose statement we have, saw a broad-shouldered man, apparently without a mustache, pushing a woman around, and acting threatening to both witnesses. Shortly thereafter that same woman was found murdered in the Yard.

So why is it illogical to assume the man, who was pushing her around, was less likely to be her killer than a man no one seems to have seen, to our knowledge? Are we supposed to assume this man became bored with beating up on Stride and just wandered off, while Liz hung around and waited for the real killer?

The broad-shoulder man may or may not have been Kidney, or someone else Stride knew, or he may have been JTR. One thing we know is that he was capable of throwing women around. He was on the spot, he was committing violence, do we really need to pull a rabbit out of a hat?

[Tom_Wescott]

Your ramblings on this issue remain every bit as pathetic as they were the first time you tried this hogwash, if you´ll pardon my French. And if you don´t, there is very little I can do about it.

You do yourself no favors by picking and choosing which evidence you'll consider worthy in order to reach your foregone conclusion...and then calling me pathetic.

According to THE 10 PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR KIDNEY:

1) Schwartz is right on the money about what he saw...except his description of BS Man. Why? Because BS Man looked nothing like Kidney. Somehow, Schwartz could see a big, billowy mustache and walk away thinking it was a small mustache. This is what Kidney supporters would have us believe.

2) The only reason to suspect Kidney in the first place is that he and Stride supposedly broke up. But who says that? Liz Stride moving out on Kidney was a semi-regular occurence, and there's nothing to suggest it was even permanent or that Kidney was particularly upset. Kidney supporters suggest this was not the case, but on what evidence?

3) All of Stride's closest associates were investigated by the police. They produced alibis which were confirmed. Kidney was unquestionably her closest associate. He went into the police station OF HIS OWN VOLITION and gave statements. He appeared at the inquest. Yet Kidney supporters will have you believe that he was not questioned about his whereabouts and that he alone among her associates was not investigated. Considering his rather gruff demeanor, I would suggest the police looked at him quite strongly.

4) All of Stride's associates were asked if there was anyone who might want to harm her. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM GAVE UP KIDNEY. Yet Kidney supporters would have you believe he was some evil, abusive force, although all the evidence thus far points away from that conclusion.

5) Stride was seperated from Kidney for only a few days after three years together, yet the autopsy revealed no signs of somewhat recent or prolonged physical abuse.

6) Kidney didn't hesitate to present himself to the police and sit in on the inquest, even though if he were BS Man, he would have known that he'd been seen and that Schwartz had talked to the police.

7) Stride's murderer did not hit her, rip her clothes, yell at her, nor did she run from him or yell audibly for help. He calmly cut her throat and laid her down. This did not occur at home or a regular haunt.

In conclusion, there is absolutely nothing that would lead an obective person to believe that Stride had been murdered by Michael Kidney or any would-be suitor. There is nothing here that points to a domestic homicide.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Enough with the semantics and personal attacks, Fisherman. If you can't argue on my level, don't attempt to argue with me.

[c.d.]

What we know is that two witnesses, only one whose statement we have, saw a broad-shouldered man, apparently without a mustache, pushing a woman around, and acting threatening to both witnesses. Shortly thereafter that same woman was found murdered in the Yard.

So why is it illogical to assume the man, who was pushing her around, was less likely to be her killer than a man no one seems to have seen, to our knowledge? Are we supposed to assume this man became bored with beating up on Stride and just wandered off, while Liz hung around and waited for the real killer?

The broad-shoulder man may or may not have been Kidney, or someone else Stride knew, or he may have been JTR. One thing we know is that he was capable of throwing women around. He was on the spot, he was committing violence, do we really need to pull a rabbit out of a hat?

Hi Celesta,

Well that's just it, the BS man didn't beat up on Stride which is what you would expect. It was simply a cut to the throat with the intent to kill. That's what makes it so strange.

c.d.

[Celesta]

Fair enough, CD. I overstated. He pushed her to the ground. My intention was to emphasize a violent action, not fisticuffs.

The suddenness of it, is what strikes me. There's little preamble. He speaks to her and then lays hands on her. The Ripper may have behaved the same way. Hard to say.

[c.d.]

Hi Celesta,

I think you meant to reply to me not Ben. But if you have a violent action, how does Liz get into the yard to the spot where she is killed? I would assume that it was not voluntary on her part (although that is a possibility). If she was dragged against her will, did she not realize the danger she was in? Why did Diemschutz's wife and Morris Eagle not hear her scream for help as they testified that they believed they would have had she done so? If she struggled with the BS man, how did the cachous remain in her hand unboken? It seems to me that these are just a few of the many red flags in the BS man as her killer scenario.

c.d.

[Ben]

If she struggled with the BS man, how did the cachous remain in her hand unboken?

Probably because they remained in her clenched fists as she tried to fend off her attacker, CD. The fact that they remained there is more indicative of preparedness for attack than it is of an a sudden and unexpected assault. Blind instinct is more likely to take over in the latter scenario.

There really aren't any red flags in the "BS man as her killer scenario" other than the possibility that Schwartz invented the whole caboodle.

Best regards,
Ben

[c.d.]

Sorry, Ben but those are simply your opinions unless you graduated with a degree in cachousology. As to red flags, I think the whole scenario is filled with them. If you don't, so be it.

c.d.

[Ben]

Sorry, Ben but those are simply your opinions unless you graduated with a degree in cachousology.

Ah, but do you have such a degree, CD?

If not, you can't know that any of the things you cite as "red flags" are genuine "red flags" or simply non-problems that can be overcome with an explanation such as the one I suggest above.

Ben

[Cap'n Jack]

What was it, Tom, that Kidney said of Stride?

'She loved me more than the others...' ?

[Celesta]

Hi CD, Sorry! Yes, I did mean to reply to you. I caught my mistake and changed it. I've pondered these same questions. If the two witnesses took off, what was to prevent him (whoever he was) from laying hands on her and tightening the scarf, until she was semi-conscious. She died where she was lying, but I wonder if she was wasn't lifted and carried into the yard, then killed . He'd have carried her, with his arms under her knees and back. He placed her on the ground, and then killed her. It seems she would have dropped those cachous near the gate when the scarf was tightened, but she might have tightened her hands instead. Perhaps they then relaxed to the "partially closed" position with unconsciousness or death?

[c.d.]

What was it, Tom, that Kidney said of Stride?

'She loved me more than the others...' ?

Such a statement would certainly have been of interest to the police would it not?

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Probably because they remained in her clenched fists as she tried to fend off her attacker, CD

I don't think that's likely or we'd see bloody knuckles from her fall to the pavement. But we have not so much as a skinned palm. She wasn't holding the cachous when she fell, and perhaps she never fell at all.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. AP, gotta love your dramatic flair. It was more like "I believe she liked me more than any other man."

[c.d.]

Interesting that Kidney is leading the BS man by almost 2 to 1. Even though I think Jack killed Liz, I think the BS man is a better candidate than Kidney by a wide margin.

The better Kidney appears as her killer, the more suspect he would have been to the police. In fact, as her lover, he should have been suspect number one. I don't think the police botched this one with respect to him.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

C.D.,

That might be because people who think BS Man was JTR voted for JTR instead. What I'm curious about is who are the five 'other' voters who think someone other than Jack/Kidney/BS/Pipe killed Liz? Fisherman is on record with his idea that it was her new beau (assuming she had one), but who else?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott