Elizabeth Stride ..who killed her ?

[Tom_Wescott]

It's tempting for me to say it was Kidney because of the way it went down, according to Schwartz. First of all the perpetrator was pretty drunk, and that's when a lot of domestic violence occurs.

That's also when a lot of solicitation occurs, hence prostitutes hanging out in or outside of pubs. Not only did BS Man not look like Kidney, but Kidney produced an alibi that the police were able to confirm. He was also quite happy to appear publicly at the inquest, knowing full well that various men (which could have been him!) were witnessed that night, and that these witnesses could very well be there in the room with him.

Considering that the ONLY reason to believe Kidney killed Stride is that they wre a couple, this opposing evidence should more than give anyone doubt about Kidneys guilt. There's really no reason to view him as a viable murder suspect.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Malcolm X]

Dutfields is totally the wrong location to mutilate somebody, it's only really safe for a quick killing...which is what the Stride murder looks like.

i'd say it's about 30% JTR

[c.d.]

For what it is worth -- There was a segment on the news the other night dealing with long distance truck drivers who are serial killers. Very disturbing. Anyway, one of the truck drivers attempted to enter a home where a woman resided but was scared off by her sceaming and calling the police. He attempted another murder a short distance away and a little while later that same evening. It seems reasonable to me that if someone is overcome by a desire to murder, or mutilate in Jack's case, that if he is unable to bring the act to fruition that he will attempt it again in a short while in order to obtain satisfaction.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Dutfields is totally the wrong location to mutilate somebody, it's only really safe for a quick killing...which is what the Stride murder looks like.

I agree. Same with Hanbury Street where you had 17 people waking up, with windows overlooking the murder site, and Jack blocking the way to the only privvy. Also the same with Buck's Row, a well-traveled residential street. Either none of these women were actually murdered, or they were murdered, and by someone willing to take very particular risks.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

The police believed that Stride and Eddowes were killed by the same man. They had the opportunity to cross-question the witnesses, to ask Schwartz and Lawende about details, to look for clues as to whether approximately 12:45 meant nearly one, or well before one. I'm inclined to think they knew what they were talking about.

Thats very respectful Christine, however lest we not forget that there is no "bread crumb trail" between sites, nor is there anything about Liz Strides simple murder that appears Jack-Like. Fisherman summarized some points rather well. And if Schwartz is so believable, then how come the only Inquest statement concerning 12:45am comes from James Brown, who saw a different encounter than Israels in a different location.

Jon made an interesting observation and one that may be the real story...if what Israel saw occurred in the yard, and he left immediately after the man shouted at him..... BSM could have killed Liz right at that moment. But she has cashous....not the average pepper spray substitute for LVP women. I believe she must have sensed no danger to be holding breath fresheners when she is grabbed and cut. And if she is alone with a man that accosted her in some manner, that is not a likely spot to let down her guard.

The real issue is uncovering why she would have had her guard down, if Schwartz was on the level. And I dont see the altercation lessening any concerns she may have had on the street alone.

Best regards all.

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"Not only did BS Man not look like Kidney, but Kidney produced an alibi that the police were able to confirm."

Now, where have I come across that before ...? Ah, NOW I remember - it was Tom W that time too, on an earlier thread.

At that time I asked him for the contemporary photos of BS man and Kidney that he would need to assert that they did not look like each other. I also, if I don´t misremember, asked him for the specific police report on the Kidney interrogation that concluded that he had a watertight alibi.

For some reason, he produced neither...? It all boiled down to an assertion that the moustache worn by Kidney could not have been described the way it was by Schwartz, a terrified man in a dark street with very little time to take in what he saw. Some proof! And in Kidneys case, there was no specific details at all. All that existed was a report that stated that Strides "near aquaintances" had been investigated, with nothing coming from it.
If that referred to Kidney, amongst others? Probably. But what he had said, and what the police had thought about it was left in complete darkness, and we all know that history provides the odd false alibi or two.

It was so demoralizing an experience that I actually decided not to believe Tom on any of these points.

Stride remains an open question - no, shall we say, overenthusiastic interpretation of the meagre evidence that remains can change that. Kidney remains a viable candidate, although I myself am more inclined to believe that the man who killed Stride may well have been Kidneys successor.

And if I am right, that still would not enable me to pinpoint the look and size of his moustache...!

Fisherman

[Celesta]

The picture I've seen of Kidney doesn't make him look broad-shouldered. I'm referring to the sketch of him. It's one of my first questions when I think of Kidney possibly being the killer.

C.D., That's a good report about the truckers and it certainly fits with the notion of the killer moving on to a second victim because he didn't get his fix with the first one.

It's true about solicitation occurring a lot with intoxication. I just had the sense that there was some familiarity betw. victim and attacker. It could be that Liz encountered BS man earlier and pis*ed him off.

[Fisherman]

Celesta writes:

"The picture I've seen of Kidney doesn't make him look broad-shouldered. I'm referring to the sketch of him. It's one of my first questions when I think of Kidney possibly being the killer."

..and that is the very same sketch Tom uses too, the reason being that we have no other pics of him.
That drawing pictures Kidney from the side to begin with, leaving us totally unable to establish the width of his shoulders. It is, however, a pic drawn by a gifted artist, known for his accuracy, and we can see that Kidney had sloping shoulders. That, though, does not mean that they were not broad. My father, dead since more than thirty years, had sloping shoulders - but they were round and broad at the same time, and he could move a car onto a sidewalk using only muscular strength.
Moreover, we are still dealing with the same scared Israel Schwartz when discussing BS man, and the same floating seconds and the same dark streets. To begin with, a scared man seeing some sort of violence inflicted would reasonably be prone to exaggerating the danger - and - perhaps - also the measures of the man inflicting the violence. Moreover, if the sleeves of the jacket were padded over the shoulders, we may get another picture. Maybe BS man wore a thick sweater underneath the jacket, increasing his size.

The options are many, and I think we cannot use the drawing of Kidney to establish how muscular and broad he was. We do know that he was a dockside labourer, though, and we do know that such an occupation is a very heavy one, and quite likely to develop muscles on those who served on the quays and docks.

"I just had the sense that there was some familiarity betw. victim and attacker."

That is a feeling I can relate to, Celesta - I think exactly the same.

The best,
Fisherman

[Celesta]

Yes, I thought it was also a matter of scale and perspective for the sketch, Fisherman. We don't really know how big a man Kidney is, but he does seem a bit thick-necked. That's just opinion, course.

It could be that things happened so fast for Israel that he got no more than impressions. If he was telling the truth, he did better than I would have done at observing. He knew that the man was drunk because he was walking behind him, which is likely when he noticed the guy was broad-shouldered. Then not only the attack occurred but the Lipski episode that put both him and Pipe dude in fear for their own safety. It happened fairly quickly, I imagine.

[Fisherman]

Celesta writes:

"He knew that the man was drunk because he was walking behind him"

If we can believe the Star, that is - in the police report, nothing is said about drunkenness...

The best,
Fisherman

[Christine]

Wouldn't the police have shown Kidney to Schwartz at least? This seems like a no-brainer, honestly. Or am I missing something? I have always just assumed that the obvious suspects like Kidney and Barnett could not have been seen by witnesses, unless the witness didn't get much of a good look at all.

Michael, I don't really have that much respect for the police, but I really can't believe that there were no attempts to determine whether Schwartz and Lawende saw the same man, or to determine whether any of the witnesses saw Kidney. If the police did anything at all they must have done that, and all accounts indicate that they were at least trying to find the Ripper.

[celee]

Hi Fisherman, I agree, however, in this instance BS Man does not appear to be aware that Schwartz was behind him, and if the incident was taking place just inside the gates and Schwartz saw her fall where she was to be found (see the following reports referring to the footway inside the gates) :

Both reports taken from the East End Observer :

Both gates were open - wide open. It was rather dark there. I drove it in as usual, but as I came into the gate my pony shied to the left, and that made me look at the ground to see what the cause of it was. I could see that there was something unusual on the pavement, but I could not see what it was.

[I]On entering the gateway a brick wall runs for some distance on the right-hand side, and it was on the footpath here[/I], and by the side of the brick wall, that the first victim was found.

Mr. Jon Guy,

Come on down. I am awfuly glad you posted. I was up all night thinking about the Stride murder and all day today while at work I was thinking about the crime scene.

I always assumed that Stride was killed were she fell. It makes sence. If Stride was able to get to her feet and make a move she would have moved towards the street not back inside the gate. Does that sound right to you. I am not as familiar with the crime scene as I would like to be.

Would the killer have killed her and then moved her back inside the gate. I assume that would suggest an attempt to conceal the body. I do not think that Jack cared much about concealing the bodies.

Your friend, Brad

[celee]

Perhaps, Schwartz actually witnessed and interupted the murder taking place. This would explain her death despite being seen?

Maybe.

I feel that if Stride's killer knew he was spotted by Shwartz and still murdered her anyway. He must have been someone who was out of control or someone who did not want to leave a witness. Maybe Kidney in some sort of rage or maybe Jack.

If it was someone who was just trying to rob Stride or get away with a free toss then I doubt he would have killed her after being seen.

Your friend, Brad

[Celesta]

Celesta writes:

"He knew that the man was drunk because he was walking behind him"

If we can believe the Star, that is - in the police report, nothing is said about drunkenness...

The best,
Fisherman

Then I stand corrected. I had the impression the man was drunk. I'll have to look into this. Thank you, Fisherman.

P.S. I just took a look at the transcript of an Oct. 1 issue of the Star. This is from the witnesses section here on the site. I suppose I may have seen this and formed the impression of his being drunk. This suggests he was not completely bombed.

"It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner Street to others in Backchurch Lane. When he first came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner Street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial Road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alleyway where the body was found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her. "

[perrymason]

Michael, I don't really have that much respect for the police, but I really can't believe that there were no attempts to determine whether Schwartz and Lawende saw the same man, or to determine whether any of the witnesses saw Kidney. If the police did anything at all they must have done that, and all accounts indicate that they were at least trying to find the Ripper.

Hi again Christine,

One would think youre correct, like we have to assume a vigorous investigation took place based on Hutchinson's story. The results of both investigations must have unearthed some reason for discrediting Hutchinson's story and completely ignoring Schwartz's at the Inquest. I think we are able to judge whether the same man was seen at both locations based on the accounts that were given, again only Lawende's is accredited at the Inquest.
Physically they could possibly be the same man, but they are not dressed alike.

Im all for Jack having engaged in some discretion, but not for costume changes during a 45 minute murder break. I think any clothes being changed may have happened when Kates killer dropped off his take for the evening before heading to Goulston.

Cheers Christine