The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

[John Bennett]

There have been several posts in the last few months on various threads on various subjects where various posters have effectively said that:

a) We cannot believe police reports in the LVP
b) We cannot believe the press in the LVP
c) We cannot believe the census returns of the LVP
d) We cannot believe the social commentators in the LVP

It's happening here too.

Just an observation.

JB

[Tom_Wescott]

Simon,

Tell me who think killed Liz Stride so we can stop speaking in riddles.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Cap'n Jack,

There were no serial killers in Berner Street on the morning of 30th September. But that's another story . . .

Tom's a good man trapped in a rut in which every word uttered by LVP cops is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Time for a quantum leap, Tom. The real truth shall set you free.

Regards,

Simon

[Cap'n Jack]

Never mind goodwill, Simon, we deal with a serial killer here.
Is it not right to suppose that apart from an envelope there is nothing to support Tom's grand and bland premise?

[Tom_Wescott]

Of course White interviewed Packer when he said he had. They interviewed everyone on the street and due to his proximity to the club, he would have been among the first. Le Grand paid him to tell a story, so he did. Packer only cooperated with the police because he thought THEY would give him money.

People with a police persecution complex who want to find a conspiracy lurking behind every badge have plenty of material to work with in the Ripper saga, but in this instance, the police are in the clear.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Stephen,

Careful who you're calling an old boy. As you earlier pointed out, Packer was younger then than you and I are now.

Contradictory statements? What ACB recorded in the hallowed precincts of Scotland Yard is substantially the same story Packer told the Evening News.

The only contradiction is Stephen White's alleged interview with Packer, which the fruiterer claimed never happened the day before White claimed that it had.

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

His statement to Smith immediately following the murders is the ONLY statement that can be taken as truth. Anything he said after Le Grand found him is useless for our purposes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Stephen Thomas]

One has to try and 'square the circle' or 'cut the Gordian Knot' or whatever regarding Packer's contradictory statements. I would suggest that we just take the old boy's statement in the hallowed precincts of Scotland Yard as the truth of what happened, headgearwise, timewise etc etc.

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Matthew_Packer.html

And totally ignore everything else.

[Tom_Wescott]

Why in God's name would somebody try to pass himself off as Le Grand? To trade on his good name? I think not. Whatever you're going for here is not working at all. If the police really believed there was something to Packer's story, they would have worked it to its end. The only conspiracy here is that of the 'Berner Street Five', headed by Le Grand.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Cap'n Jack,

Think of it as a gesture of goodwill.

"One of the men had a letter in his hand addressed to Le Grand & Co., Strand."

That was from Stephen White's report of the following day.

I've got an envelope on my desk addressed to the local power company, but it does not make me its CEO.

It's the police reports which defy belief.

Regards,

Simon

[Cap'n Jack]

'I am willing to concede that these detectives were Le Grand and Batchelor.'

Why is that, Simon?
A piece of paper with the name Le Grand scrawled on it?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

Detail from the Evening News, 4th October 1888—

Packer was interviewed by the Evening News on the evening of Wednesday 3rd October.

Earlier the same day he had been taken to Golden Lane mortuary—

"With a view of testing the accuracy and honesty of Packer's testimony, the detectives obtained an order to view the body of the woman murdered in Mitre square, and took Packer to see it, leaving him under the impression that they were taking him to see the Berner street victim. On seeing the body he at once declared that it was not the woman for whom the grapes had been bought, and not a bit like her."

I am willing to concede that these detectives were Le Grand and Batchelor.

However, this does not automatically make them the same two detectives encountered twice the following day by Sergeant Stephen White [and without a mention in the Evening News].

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

Simon,

We have it from two sources. The Evening News which published Le Grand's report where it's stated very clearly that they showed Packer Eddowes' body to try to throw him off and then Stride's. We also have it from Sgt White. Now, unless you want to suggest that Le Grand and/or the Evening News was in on this vast and pointless conspiracy, you must accept that there were no Scotland Yard Detectives involved. They well and truly saw Packer for the liar he was.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

How do we know for a fact it was Le Grand and Batchelor who ferried Packer around?

We don't.

All we know is that Sergeant White thought they were the two private detectives mentioned in the Evening News. Swanson simply repeated this definite maybe in his 19th October report.

To make Stride a JtR victim, Packer and his evidence had to be discredited.

Regards,

Simon

[DVV]

Damned cachous and grapes of wrath.
Fortunately, Liz had only two hands.