The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

[Simon Wood]

Hi CD,

To solve the conundrum all you have to do is reconcile three things—

1. Stride was dead at 1.00 am.

2. Stride bled to death comparatively slowly.

3. The Ripper was interrupted at 1.00 am.

Regards,

Simon

[c.d.]

I think the bottom line is that no matter how hard you try to tweak the time frame, there is ample time for Jack to arrive on the scene and do his thing. He doesn't have to bypass some complex security code, evade guard dogs or climb a high wall topped with barbed wire. Since the time is only an estimate it would seem that it can also be tweaked to give Jack only a short time before he is interrupted by Diemschutz.

c.d.

[Jeff Leahy]

I dont know if I'm missing something here, but wouldn't a time frame of 12.46, approx the same time Schwartz see's BS attack Stride suggest that, BS was the ripper?

and Stride simply takes some time to die behind the gates before her body is discovered.

Pirate

[Chris]

By the phrasing it seems to me he is strongly endorsing 20 minutes or less as the timing, but allowing for as much as 30 minutes as his safety position.

[my emphasis added]

Yes, that's exactly what I was pointing out.

According to most reports, he thought 20 minutes or less was the likeliest timing. So he didn't estimate that "Liz is cut by 12:56" as you claimed in the post I was replying to.

And of course c.d. is right that any contemporary estimate of the time of death would be subject to a large uncertainty.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Chris,

This was a time of transition and growth for the club. They most definitely had their anarchist connections.
As for the yard, if you rent a house and a woman shows up dead in the yard, it would be a dead body in 'your yard'. Ownership is incidental.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Yes but Michael and others it have been saying the yard was club property which implies they owned it. My question is, did they.

Chris

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

It makes even less sense to blindly accept the "ripper interruptus" version of events when there is evidence to support it being nothing more than a fairy tale.

What evidence can you bring to the table in support of Stride being killed by the Ripper?

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Chris,

This was a time of transition and growth for the club. They most definitely had their anarchist connections.
As for the yard, if you rent a house and a woman shows up dead in the yard, it would be a dead body in 'your yard'. Ownership is incidental.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[ChrisGeorge]

- The International Club was categorized by officials as an Anarchists Club.

The same club later on became an anarchist club. They were more genuinely socialist at this period.

- Diemshutz and Eagle supposedly yell "another woman has been murdered" when seeking Police. Yet nothing in Liz Strides single injury would lead to an automatic conclusion this death belonged to the man that killed Annie Chapman, or Polly.

You are looking at the situation the wrong way though. A murder in the same area as the other murders, which it was, would automatically be credited in the public imagination to the same killer, right or wrongly, partly because thinking about the murders was driven by the press coverage which characterized or at least implied that all murders in Whitechapel, Spitalfields and adjoining neighborhoods to the same hand. It was rightly or wrongly a myth created by the press. We need to think in the mindset of the people in the East End and all England during the period.

Hi Malcolm,

I would disagree that moving Liz would be a smart option for them. Its possible based on my conjecture that the members themselves had nothing to do with the murder at at all....their only concern would be that the man was a club attendee and therefore that makes them responsible for "hosting" a killer, and that a woman is dead in their yard.

Do we have proof that the yard actually was owned by the club? There weren't the only people who used the yard since there were other businesses and private residences there (I'm viewing the printing office of Der Arbeiter Fraint as a business separate to the club). Was the yard actually owned by anybody or was it more of an "unadopted" passage or area?

Chris

[Tom_Wescott]

I agree with the seedmeister. To use some estimate of time of death and suggest that it proves she wasn't killed by the Ripper is pure hot air. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi again folks,

Thanks for the support gents. To answer your question cd, I do think a wound as recently made as this one was allows us to extend the estimate credibility to Dr Blackwell. We know for a fact that PC Smith saw Liz near 12:35, so the time frame here is within 50 minutes without Schwartz, Brown or any additional witnesses.

I believe by the wound and blood flow alone, he was capable of making an accurate call. He does after all give himself leeway with his addition of 10 minutes earlier after his guesstimate. It places Goldstein, not Diemshutz as most likely at or near the scene when Liz is being killed or already down..but both are Club members, so in this scenario both stories may have reason to reduce the level of suspicion that would directed at the Club automatically when a woman is found with a single cut in their yard.

As I said before, if Liz had her abdomen mutilated, they wouldnt have had to bother...that would be Jack, and no other member would be convinced that backing the story about the club was better than turning the man in and getting the reward money.

Best regards cd, all.

[Simon Wood]

Hi CD,

By the time Wynne Baxter mangled the medical evidence in his summing-up, Stride "had been entrapped, and the injuries inflicted, so as to cause instant death."

That's really squaring the circle.

Regards,

Simon

[c.d.]

I think a key phrase is being left out here. His statement should be prefaced by "in my opinion" or " I think" or "I believe." Again, what we have is an estimate not a cold hard fact. What tests did he perform to arrive at the time of death? Let's get real here. This ain't C.S.I. Miami. It is simply an estimate done in 1888 not the word of God.

c.d.

[Simon Wood]

Nice going Michael,

To Blackwell's statement that Stride "could not have been cut more than 20 minutes before my arrival, at the most, 1 half hour" factor in another of his observations, "She would have bled to death comparatively slowly on account of vessels on one side only of the neck being cut and the artery not completely severed."

Now try to square that with [a] Stride being dead at 1.00 am, and [b] the "Ripper" being interrupted by Diemschitz at 1.00 am.

It doesn't work. Stride being a Ripper victim is utter nonsense.

Regards,

Simon

[Malcolm X]

i'd definitely keep going Perrymason, because i cant see the Ripper having killed Stride, so you could be onto something here.

Actually, according to most reports of Blackwell's inquest testimony, he thought that she had been dead not more than 20-30 minutes when he saw her - not that she had been dead for more than 20 minutes:
http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...&postcount=192

I think the quote that is attributed to him that spells it out the best Chris, is that he said based on his arrival at 1:16am, the woman "could not have been cut more than 20 minutes before my arrival, at the most, 1 half hour."

By the phrasing it seems to me he is strongly endorsing 20 minutes or less as the timing, but allowing for as much as 30 minutes as his safety position.

If this wound was hours old I would think we could question the accuracy of the estimate, but one that "fresh" seems to me to be well within his capacity.

Best regards