The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

[Tom_Wescott]

I think you tend to confuse yourself, AP. No, I do not think a Jew killed Stride, although I suppose it's just as possible as a gentile killer. I was simply pointing out that it's very possible some of the clubmen had interraction with Stride prior to her murder, and this would have made them very nervous.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

Blackwell and Phillips testimony on being recalled to the inquest after Packer's damning story appeared in the Evening News effectively got the police off the hook.

I'll take a punt here and suggest the good doctors were lying.

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

To accuse the doctors of lying, you should keep in mind that there were MANY witnesses to her body in the yard, and none came up after to scream 'cover up!' And believe me, the press would have loved that. If the doctors were lying, so were the police, Edward Spooner, and later Diemschutz and the other clubmen who gave evidence. I'm sorry, but there were no grapes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Natalie Severn]

Re the witness Schwartz"s comments about what he said he saw that night,the the name Klosowski [aka Chapman] was pronounced by the English as "Schloski" and it may have sounded a bit like the word, "Lipski" to Schwartz ,who hadnt yet attuned to the English sound system as he had to depend on an interpreter to describe the incident he saw and heard.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Natalie. I'm not sure what Chapman has to do with this, or why someone would be yelling out his name, but Abberline questioned Schwartz thoroughly on what he heard and what relationship he thought the two men (they of the pipe and shoulders) may have had. I don't think there was a problem with the translation, but we'll have to take Schwartz's word that he correctly heard what was said.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

It's quite a leap from "Lipski" to "Schloski", Nats. Besides, the "Schloski" pronunciation dates from Kłosowski's time at Tottenham, many years later, when he was definitely working amongst non-Jews. In his earlier work amongst the Jews of East London, he apparently seems to have gone by the name of "Ludwig Zagowski" (according to Wolff Levisohn), which again bears little resemblance to "Lipski", whichever way one looks at it - or listens to it, for that matter.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Tom,
From the later part of 1888, Chapman [real name Severin Klosowski] was down as having his address at 126 Cable Street - only a few minutes South of Berner Street , and we know that he was using the name Zagowski-pronounced "Schloski" only a year later [1890] in George Yard.
OK-it may be a long shot, but even the police were getting the pronunciation of foreign names muddled because of their unfamiliarity with their syllable patterns,so the real pronunciation of the word Schwartz heard could have got lost in translation.

Sam,according to Rumbelow it was the " Ludwig Zagowski" that people pronounced Schloski,according to Levishon this was the name he was using when he met up with him in the East End. Lipski sounds very similar to Schloski-IMHO!

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Natalie. I see that as a very, very loose connection, especially considering what a weak suspect Chapman makes. But even if I found him relevant, I'm not sure I'd be swayed, since - as Sam pointed out - Lipski sounds so much different from 'Schoski', particularly to the ears of a Jewish immigrant like Schwartz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Sam,according to Rumbelow it was the " Ludwig Zagowski" that people pronounced Schloski,according to Levishon this was the name he was using when he met up with him in the East End.

I think Rumbelow was wrong, Nats. I can well imagine "Kłosowsky" being mistakenly pronounced as "Shloski" - as it has a consonant followed by an "L" at the start and a mass of "ss" sounds in the middle. "Zagowski" has neither of those attributes.

Lipski sounds very similar to Schloski-IMHO!

Only in the sense that "lipping" could be mistaken for "shlossing".

[Natalie Severn]

All I can say,Tom and Sam, is that such muddles or sound confusions are very common when people new to a foreign language havent yet tuned into the new sound system.

Tom,
Chapman was a convicted serial killer and a qualified barber surgeon who lived in The East End in 1888.
In September 1889 he appears in the Post Office Directory as the lone occupant of 126 Cable Street an address next to the series of railway arches which contained the Pinchin Street Torso 9/1888.He has to be a serious suspect.

[Sam Flynn]

All I can say,Tom and Sam, is that such muddles or sound confusions are very common when people new to a foreign language havent yet tuned into the new sound system.

But surely not to the extent where "loss" is confused for "lip", Nats.

[Tom_Wescott]

Aren't there like 5 George Chapman threads open to discuss this stuff on?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Stephen Thomas]

I happen to believe Matthew Packer

That's nice to hear, Simon. Me too.

That 'silly old man' was 5 or 6 years younger than me and you are now .

He seems to have described the same person seen by others with Stride that night, the one who didn't look like the type to get his hands dirty and who doesn't get discussed these days.

[Natalie Severn]

Aren't there like 5 George Chapman threads open to discuss this stuff on?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Quite right Tom.Just thought Schwartz"s alleged interpretation of that shouting match involving the name "Lipski" deserved some probing.
Cheers
Nats

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Nats, No prob.

That's nice to hear, Simon. Me too.

That 'silly old man' was 5 or 6 years younger than me and you are now .

His age had nothing to do with why the police chose not to believe him. His lying and changing story was the reason.

He seems to have described the same person seen by others with Stride that night, the one who didn't look like the type to get his hands dirty and who doesn't get discussed these days.

Which man was that? Because he described a lot of them. A 28 year old, a 30 year old, a 35 year old, short coat, long coat, English, American. And then there's the matter of his giant invisible umbrella.

Packer was selling something on Berner Street, but it wasn't grapes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott