The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

[The Good Michael]

The safety of the Berner Street club and its ability to recruit members and dispense socialist and radical information would have been paramount, and especially just after a woman is murdered on its property when many members were present. It wouldn't take but a moment for Diemschutz to advise Wess of the situation and for Wess, or another to gather the club members and say, "I'll handle this situation. We have done nothing wrong, but the more of you that talk to the police, the more suspicion may be cast on the club. Diemschutz and I will do the talking. The rest of you, speak Yiddish or Russian when confronted. Remember, the ability to continue our good work here is of utmost importance."

In most organizations, this is kind of how things work. In a radical organization, there would be tight controls over who said what to the police. There were all sorts of secrets that could be leaked out if an open witness was allowed to blather away.

I suggest that no one knew what happened to Stride (at that moment), but that it was all about information control in order to protect the club and its members, and the murder wasn't even a secondary consideration. Schwartz could have easily been a plant along with an "expert" translator, though that is quite a bit of speculation.

Did a member kill Stride? Was a member Jack the Ripper? Possibly, but that wasn't as important as allowing the socialist movement to continue. I think they would have taken care of an issue like this themselves so as not to call more attention to their goings-on.

Cheers,

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

If there were a Jewish/Socialist hush-up at Berner Street, it strikes me that all those witnesses had very little time in which to cook up their cover story.

Has anyone yet addressed the observation with which I opened this thread?

[DVV]

Not yet...but no wonder, from those who, like me, don't believe in any cover-up there.
It's a valid argument, though some may reply that the Clubmen's story would be quickly cooked up: "We know nothing, have seen nothing, heard nothing. Okay?"
To which I'd reply: they could easily put the corpse on Diemshutz formula 1 and leave it somewhere.

Amitiés,
David

[perrymason]

Hi all,

Mike I think your first few paragraphs are thoughts aligned with mine, but Ive not yet concluded they didnt see it or know the man that did it yet. I doubt the yard was empty. If they let the man into the club long enough to stir some people by the gates, he is then let out the Berner door and walks away without attention. Might been seen shortly wiping his hands somewhere.

Sam, by Blackwell....and lets face it, he was within his skill level to determine an approximate cut time based on at the most, a half hour cut,...if there is no BSM/Liz altercation outside the gates, Liz may have been in the yard shortly after Browns sighting...and cut as early as 12:46am. Thats loads of time to do as Mike suggests....."This is how we'll handle this, ....no-one was out here after Eagle comes back in, and he'll say the yard was empty, right Morris? No-one else was out here, and no-one saw nuffing, right? This aint our doing, but it can be our undoing, so stick together and we'll make out fine." Diemshutz pulls in, the horse shies from the people just inside the gate to the right...around a body. They fill him in....5 minutes later they have Spooner in the yard.

Like my namesake would recognize, when there is motive and opportunity for The Club to remain the "men that will not be blamed for nothing"....I can easily see it being a decision that they would make.

The thing about moving her David is the blood. Its a river in their yard in the gutter, and still oozing from her. Best not to try and move her, imagine if they were caught doing that....vs just telling a white lie to avoid ruin. See no evil, Hear no evil, Do no evil.

Best regards all.

[DVV]

The thing about moving her David is the blood. Its a river in their yard in the gutter, and still oozing from her.
Best regards all.

Hi Mike,
close the gates, and you can't be caught.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

edit: far more risky to bring the police to the club, no ?

[The Good Michael]

Has anyone yet addressed the observation with which I opened this thread?

Gareth,

I think I addressed this in a long-winded way. I think an organization would have spokespersons who would do all the talking. It would have been quite easy just to tell your fellows to play dumb, or play Yiddish, or something. I think Diemschutz knew only his part, and Wess only his part, and if a member was involved, it may not gave been understood that evening. The main thing would have been not letting anything about the club slip that would harm the clubs usual activities.

Cheers,

Mike

[DVV]

I think an organization would have spokespersons who would do all the talking.
Mike

The "energetic Morris Eagle" (Sugden?), eh ?

Amitiés,
David

[The Good Michael]

Wess, Eagle, and Diemschutz possibly. Who knows? Not I.

Mike

[perrymason]

Hi David,

I think Morris might be coming back that night for Liz. I think she likes Jewish men.

Yes, you could shut the gates, get some buckets of water and flush the blood, cover the body with a tarp and send Diemshutz out to drop it somewhere...but why risk being caught transporting a woman you didnt kill? How much risk would they take to preserve their operations...Lying seems a small price to pay, but not going so far as to hide a killer or move his victims for him.

As Mike suggests a spokesman, maybe Diemshutz...he is steward, or Eagle...someone they will listen to puts together a "seenothingheardnothing" story...most go back inside, 2 go out for cops......seems safe enough to me......but which one is this person they all will abide by?

Heres my thinking......Wess. He translates for 1 Club witness, perhaps is a translator for Schwartzs story...he runs the anarchist press Arbeter Fraint onsite...(the man who could lose the most financially as a result of trouble)....he claims he was already gone....and this to me is outrageous.....he is asked to speak first at the Inquest.

Not the man that was last seen with her, or who saw her, not the medical authority, not Diemshutz who finds her, not Kidney the closest known male, not PC Smith the last copper there....but William Wess, the editor who left before anything happened. Or did he?

Best regards all.

[DVV]

All this is very interesting, Mike(s),
but where is the motive ?
Kidney can make this murder a domestic affair.
Jack was a serial killer.
But Wess ?
I add that with such a position in the organization, he would have been very stupid to kill there.
And even if there had been a successful cover-up, he would have quickly faced a general grudge.

Amitiés,
David

[The Good Michael]

..he is asked to speak first at the Inquest.

It's possible Wess asked to be questioned first as well, perhaps to set the tone for his cronies. Still Mike, I'm not suggesting there was a murder cover-up. Sufficient reason for a cover-up would be that a woman was killed on Club property. They had to nip this one in the bud or subject the club to all sorts of scrutiny. As I said, I think they would have taken care of any problem involving a member and murder on their own, and that it would have been secondary to the protection of the club. I wonder if Druitt was a member?

Mike

[perrymason]

All this is very interesting, Mike(s),
but where is the motive ?
Kidney can make this murder a domestic affair.
Jack was a serial killer.
But Wess ?
I add that with such a position in the organization, he would have been very stupid to kill there.
And even if there had been a successful cover-up, he would have quickly faced a general grudge.

Amitiés,
David

I havent mentioned a killer yet.

Wess may have been the ringmaster, in my opinion.

One thing about Morris....he says when he heard of the woman cut and bleeding by the gates he "tumbled pell mell down the stairs" to go see...yet he then says he was deathly afraid of the sight of blood.....seems rushing to look at something that sickens you might have more to do with who is bleeding, than just a dead woman bleeding.

What if Broadshouldered Man is a club thug. He is in the yard after the meeting....Liz shows up near the time she is to meet her "friend"...Morris sees her, tells her hell be right back, and she decides to wait just inside the gates for him. BSM starts being "overly friendly", and not warmly received as Liz has her mind on her date. Schwartz walks out the side door. A scuffle is taking place, Liz falls, BSM snaps a warning to Schwartz over his shoulder, then he and a man smoking a pipe in the yard leave via the gates. Liz is dying.

Some member runs inside to tell Kozebrodski or someone, and he and Eagle and some guys come running down to see what happened. Its now around 12:50-12:55. A few men are talking about what to do about this, Goldstein walks by and is warned to keep moving by a man in the yard. They take BSM into the kitchen, give him a napkin to wipe his hands, then a few minutes later when the hubub starts by the gates, they let him out the Berner door.

They lie about the yard being empty, and later, about where the incident occurred. For 2 reasons.....1, to protect their own interests and financial investments, and 2, because they fear reprisal from BSM...a man they hire for crowd control because he is scary.

Thats sort of how I envision this may work. But who is the ringleader? Did Wess actually leave? Or was it one of the other senior men onsite? If not Wess, then what the hell is he doing speaking first at Liz Strides murder Inquest?

Best regards

[DVV]

Hey, Mike,
Not bad at all...
For sure, it makes a good reading!
Thanks.

Amitiés,
David

[Malcolm X]

I havent mentioned a killer yet.

Wess may have been the ringmaster, in my opinion.

One thing about Morris....he says when he heard of the woman cut and bleeding by the gates he "tumbled pell mell down the stairs" to go see...yet he then says he was deathly afraid of the sight of blood.....seems rushing to look at something that sickens you might have more to do with who is bleeding, than just a dead woman bleeding.

What if Broadshouldered Man is a club thug. He is in the yard after the meeting....Liz shows up near the time she is to meet her "friend"...Morris sees her, tells her hell be right back, and she decides to wait just inside the gates for him. BSM starts being "overly friendly", and not warmly received as Liz has her mind on her date. Schwartz walks out the side door. A scuffle is taking place, Liz falls, BSM snaps a warning to Schwartz over his shoulder, then he and a man smoking a pipe in the yard leave via the gates. Liz is dying.

Some member runs inside to tell Kozebrodski or someone, and he and Eagle and some guys come running down to see what happened. Its now around 12:50-12:55. A few men are talking about what to do about this, Goldstein walks by and is warned to keep moving by a man in the yard. They take BSM into the kitchen, give him a napkin to wipe his hands, then a few minutes later when the hubub starts by the gates, they let him out the Berner door.

They lie about the yard being empty, and later, about where the incident occurred. For 2 reasons.....1, to protect their own interests and financial investments, and 2, because they fear reprisal from BSM...a man they hire for crowd control because he is scary.

Thats sort of how I envision this may work. But who is the ringleader? Did Wess actually leave? Or was it one of the other senior men onsite? If not Wess, then what the hell is he doing speaking first at Liz Strides murder Inquest?

Best regards

i dont think it's a cover up at all, definitely not envolving Diemschutz...it's far too rediculous, because i would've thought that the sensible thing to have done was :- to close the gates, put Stride's body onto the cart, cover her over, take the cart out again and dump her somewhere else, shift the blame elsewhere.......
return to dutfields and wash the blood away.... chance of being stopped? this didn't bother the Torso murderer did it

but hay who knows, it's up to you lot to argue it out!

[perrymason]

i dont think it's a cover up at all, definitely not envolving Diemschutz...it's far too rediculous, because i would've thought that the sensible thing to have done was :- to close the gates, put Stride's body onto the cart, cover her over, take the cart out again and dump her somewhere else, shift the blame elsewhere.......
return to dutfields and wash the blood away.... chance of being stopped? this didn't bother the Torso murderer did it

but hay who knows, it's up to you lot to argue it out!

Hi Malcolm,

I would disagree that moving Liz would be a smart option for them. Its possible based on my conjecture that the members themselves had nothing to do with the murder at at all....their only concern would be that the man was a club attendee and therefore that makes them responsible for "hosting" a killer, and that a woman is dead in their yard.

Moving around Torsos that you made yourself is another thing altogether.

Best regards