Why Did the BS Man Try to Pull Liz into the Street?

[Sam Flynn]

But Im sure that youd agree Sam that the situation they had come upon was not obviously one of the same killer of the last 2 women in the neighborhood...a Ripper as killer wasnt warranted by Liz's single wound or demeanor in death

I doubt that they'd have stopped to think, Mike and, besides, the "Ripper" was yet to emerge. Until this point, it was "Leather Apron" and the "Whitechapel Murderer" who, in varying degrees - and for more than a mere two murders - had gripped the public imagination. So, "another murder" was a quite natural thing to have thought and said. No great mystery there.

[perrymason]

I believe it was you that was responsible for me getting that impression Tom, almost solely based on the ages of the men from the club present in the story. I thank you for that information. I dont mean that he was necessarily a card carrying member,...surely some meeting attendees werent full fledged members, those meetings were to attract new ones also. His "moving" story sucks, and if his translator helps him out by giving him a story in English that makes him seem a good husband and places the initial altercation off premises,..so much the better for him at home later. She might even have been worried for him...instead of wondering where he was at 12:45am.

Sam, I know that this is the weekend the phrase "Ripper" is born, but my point is valid I believe...."another" woman is a prejudicial statement without supporting evidence...it had been 3 weeks since the last murder...this wasnt a "current" mania..it had subsided somewhat. Streets were back to somewhat their normal state.

If evidence exists by a non-English speaking witness that suggests a club attendee killed the woman in the yard, (and that he had been hanging about a Socialists meeting instead of seeing to his wife at the new digs)....you have the makings of a potential disaster for the Club...and some issues for the witness to handle. The woman is dead already...he cant change that...but his statement in English could relieve the Club of almost any suspected involvement...after all the killer enters the picture passing the locked Berner Street door towards the gates...so he couldnt have come from the club, could he?

Does his translator or he himself make those subtle detail changes when giving his story in my premise here....dont know.....but I do know that if BSM and Liz's encounter did happen in the yard, Schwartz's story is literally the salvation of the club and the paper.

But if it did happen that way....Diemshutz, Kozebrodski, Eagle and Mrs Diemshutz all have some "splainin" to do.

Best regards Sam, Tom, all.

[Robert]

It only requires there to have been a linguistic misinterpretation - or for Schwarz to have looked away for a brief second - and it could be a different story. Who was pulling whom? Was Stride on the pull that night? Did she try to pull BS into the yard? If he pulled back, it's logical that Stride would be the one who ended up moving.

[Robert]

Even the English version is puzzling! It looks for all the world as if Schwarz was level with the gate when all this happened. I doubt if he was.

[Tom_Wescott]

I believe it was you that was responsible for me getting that impression Tom, almost solely based on the ages of the men from the club present in the story.

Yes, Michael. I first started suspecting Schwartz was associated with the Berner Street club some time back, although I have more reason to think so than just their ages.

The members of the Berner Street club were mostly 18-25, with the Elders (such as Krantz and Wess) being 27-29. Schwartz was apparently also a young man, and if the Start reporter is to be believed, he was not an Hassidic Jew and in fact dressed like a showman.

Schwartz (according to the Star) lived in Berner Street until the day of the murder, when he had moved to a neighboring street. Interesting timing. And where in Berner Street did young, Jewish immigrants in need of a home stay?

At the Berner Street club.

Funny how the one guy who was busy moving that night and thus wasn't barricaded in the club by the police, also happened to be the guy for whom the ENTIRE STREET EMPTIED OUT except for him, Liz, and two suspicious gentiles.
Add to this the newspaper reports that the police did not wholly accept Schwartz's evidence, and ask yourself what might have given them reason to doubt him? His association with the clubmen, who at that time were held in suspicion?

The theory above is theoretical at this point, but if it is born out that Schwartz was associated with Wess and/or the club, we'd have to ask ourselves how much stock we could put in his evidence.

I'm thinking about writing something up on this for Ripperologist soon, since there appears to be a bit of interest in Schwartz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Funny how the one guy who was busy moving that night and thus wasn't barricaded in the club by the police, also happened to be the guy for whom the ENTIRE STREET EMPTIED OUT except for him, Liz, and two suspicious gentiles.

I'm thinking about writing something up on this for Ripperologist soon, since there appears to be a bit of interest in Schwartz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

It is a situation where almost all the evidence provided is advantageous to the club members...funny that. When looking at a crime I always look to anyone that might gain from the actions taken....in this case I cannot see a downside for the club the way the statements read...and I cannot see a good reason why these young men known to police as Anarchists would have an empty yard and street on that night when they historically, did not after meetings on Saturdays.

Too convenient for my liking anyway...and I think its a good time for you to re-visit the event using your research into the club and its members Tom.

Best regards.

[Mrs Darrell]

I've just ploughed my way through Philip Sugden's book, and he makes some interesting points about the Stride murder. I'm sure all you have read it long before me, but he seems to conclude that it is likely that Liz was a Ripper victim- so I'm now right back where I started- undecided.

In my opinion it is the evidence of Israel Schwartz that complicates everything. It's hard to square the actions of BS man with the stealthy actions of the killer of the other victims.