Why Did the BS Man Try to Pull Liz into the Street?

[c.d.]

We have a description of both men and a good drawing of Kidney from the inquest. He sported a giant moustache, whereas BS Man did not. Even Sy Sperling couldn't grow a moustache that fast.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Not to mention Ron Jeremy.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

True dat, CD. Reminds me of the time I got a viagra stuck in my throat....had a stiff neck for a week.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Tom,

Do you know what Viagra and DisneyWorld have in common? An hour wait for a two minute ride.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

No, you can´t grow an enormous moustache in a day or two - but you can make a misjudgement in a split second, due to a great number of factors: subliminal identification processes being one such thing, and as prosaic a phenomenon as shadows being another.

There is absolutely no way, however, that you or anybody else can tell the posters out here that Kidney in no way resembled BS man. The description of BS man is extremely lacking in detail, and to assure us that the drawing of Kidney was a good one is simply useless. To state such a thing, we neeed to compare it to that Kidney photo that does not exist.

And if we turn things around, what we have on BS man is that he had a full face, fair skin, broad shoulders, a small brown moustache and dark hair (if I remember it correctly).
And Kidney? Since the drawing (which we don´t know if it was good or not - we are left with guesswork) shows him from the side, we can´t tell if he had a full face. Nor can we tell if he had broad shoulders. His hair seems to have been neither fair nor dark, so that gives very little, he DID seemingly (it´s NOT a photo, it´s a drawing) have a big moustache, but we can´t tell how correct Schwartz got the assesment of BS mans ditto. They both were caucasian men, obviously.

Now, how you can come up with the assertion that there were no likeness at all between the two from this thin a material is beyond me. A little more care should be taken, unless we want to deceive posters out here, and we don´t .

Do we...?

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

There is absolutely no way, however, that you or anybody else can tell the posters out here that Kidney in no way resembled BS man.

What are you talking about? I did just that two posts ago!

Seriously, though. We work with what we have, and my case exonerating Kidney is a million times stronger than any case attempting to put him in Dutfield's Yard.

Equally, the case for Stride as a Ripper victim is far and away mucho weightier than the case for her being some random one-off.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

I got this from Wiki. According to Schwartz, Liz was standing in the gateway of the yard when she was approached by the BS man. He spoke to her and then tried to pull her into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway. I had always been under the impression that Schwartz had arrived during the altercation, not before. Which is the correct version?

Then the question is why did he try to pull her into the street and not the yard? This does sound like the BS man knew her for it would appear that this all transpired very quickly.

Also, if Liz was waiting for someone, the gate would be a good place to stand. "I'll be waiting at the gate."

c.d.

I interpret the initial interaction between BSM and Liz as being a drunken clumsy but innocent tug on the hand of a woman who he might have seen soliciting before...or assumed she was, and he tries to take her somewhere darker and private...that he leads her into the street might mean that he is heading in a direction towards home, and pulls her along with him. I think she pulls back...and he lets go and she falls. He is said to have been helping her up also.

I think that Liz declined, that she is in her nice evening wear according to her lodgemate, that she is wearing fresh maidenfern and flowers on her breast, and that she is found holding items to sweeten ones breath...indicate she may well have been waiting for someone in the club.

I have a personal favourite for that guy too....and I think he may have talked with her briefly before going in the yard for the side door.

In his statement he says he is afraid of the sight of blood, but nonetheless tumbled down the stairs "pell-mell" when word was given that a woman was found dead inside the gates...with her blood running down the gutter.

I dont believe someone who is scared of blood runs to see slit throats and blood streams....so why else might he be hurrying?

Remember....these are all young guys. Not old frightened yarmulke wearing Socialists.

....and they yell "another woman" has been killed when its the first murder that night. Cover-up.

Best regards all.

[Fisherman]

Tom writes:

"Seriously, though. We work with what we have, and my case exonerating Kidney is a million times stronger than any case attempting to put him in Dutfield's Yard.

Equally, the case for Stride as a Ripper victim is far and away mucho weightier than the case for her being some random one-off."

No. And no. And that´s another example of working from what we have.

The best,
Fisherman

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Could the broad-shouldered bloke be a member of the club and wanted to forcibly get Stride from loitering on the property for clients (presumably)? I always thought one of the people from the club cutting Stride's throat to be more likely than the Ripper, and could even explain the GSG, if you wanted to believe that Jack chalked it.

Reminds me of the time I got a viagra stuck in my throat....had a stiff neck for a week.

I lol'd. xD

[Sam Flynn]

....and they yell "another woman" has been killed when its the first murder that night. Cover-up.

Not so much the first murder that night, as the Nth in a series of Whitechapel Murders. Noting that "another woman" had been killed wasn't a particularly mysterious phrase to use in that part of town at that time, nor in the press.

Therefore, no cover-up.

[Lord-z]

Could the broad-shouldered bloke be a member of the club and wanted to forcibly get Stride from loitering on the property for clients (presumably)? I always thought one of the people from the club cutting Stride's throat to be more likely than the Ripper, and could even explain the GSG, if you wanted to believe that Jack chalked it.

He yelled Lipski, an anti-semetic slur, when he saw Schwartz, didn't he?

[Mascara & Paranoia]

I completely forgot about that. Good point, um...

[perrymason]

Not so much the first murder that night, as the Nth in a series of Whitechapel Murders. Noting that "another woman" had been killed wasn't a particularly mysterious phrase to use in that part of town at that time, nor in the press.

Therefore, no cover-up.

But Im sure that youd agree Sam that the situation they had come upon was not obviously one of the same killer of the last 2 women in the neighborhood...a Ripper as killer wasnt warranted by Liz's single wound or demeanor in death ...lying on her side....yet the accusation implied there was evidence that warranted the cry.

If Schwartz was a club member.. which is what I suspect he was, his being there at that time for his other excuse is weak....then I cant be sure the altercation even took place outside the gates....I wouldnt know how to sort out what he lied about and what was the real witness evidence. I cant be sure the yard was actually empty either, if club members just "move" the altercation 15 feet outside the gate using Schwartzs opportunity to do so.

If she is killed after being seen in the yard with a ruffian with Broadshoulders, she was almost certainly killed by a man that attended the club that night...likely the one roughing her up a bit. If she is placed outside the gates and the same altercation takes place....then her killer must have slipped into the dark with her to slit her throat...and tada...there is Jacky boy for ya.

Altercation seen inside the yard...likely Club attendee, meetings end, club closes. Altercation on the street outside the gates...could be anybody who brings her into the yard...and likely not from the club itself. In fact....the Berner door was locked.....you know why I think that was said Sam? So Broadshouldered Man could not have come from the club.

That would mean that Eagle might have used the yard entrance on purpose...maybe to tell a lass waiting there he'd be right out.

Best regards Gareth

[Mrs Darrell]

So you think Schwartz may have concocted the story to divert attention from the club? Interesting theory.

[perrymason]

So you think Schwartz may have concocted the story to divert attention from the club? Interesting theory.

Hi Mrs Darrell,

I do,... personally. I believe his lack of English may have played a role there as well, as its possible the translator represented Club interests, and might be able to "alter" things slightly while giving Schwartz's account.

His story about why he is there is not reasonable, and it places him, a Hungarian Socialist Jew of around 30 ish, outside a Working Mens Club for Socialist Jews after a Saturday meeting they regularly held had ended, and some 28 attendees were still on the premises and singing. The yard is stated as empty by 4 people representing the Club...first Wess, then Mrs Diemshutz, then Lave, then Eagle on his return....and we have neighbors that stated they often heard noises from the yard after 1am after Saturday meetings, with "low" men and women, to contradict that stated scenario.

We have Fanny Mortimer who never saw Broadshouldered Man, or Liz, or Schwartz near the gates anytime she is at her door off and on until 1am. And we have Goldstein walking past the gates at round 1:55, and not going in the yard that singing is heard coming from, even though he has a bag full of empty cigarette cartons on his person and a few cigarette makers in the cottages stated they were awake at around the time of the murders, and he was a club member.......my personal guess is he saw people around a figure on the ground and kept walking. I think that people caused Diemshutz's horse to shy away.

Its circumstantially based of course, but I contend that if the event that Schwartz saw was almost on the exact spot where Liz was found, and he sidestepped his way around the altercation to leave by the gates with another man who may have been smoking his pipe in the yard after the meeting, you have the beginning of the murder and an attendee that night likely to blame for her death.

There has to be good reason why she is not mutilated postmortem or even an attempt made in supposedly an empty yard....thats one possibility...Jack didnt kill her, a club thug did. And the altercation that led up to it that was seen by a member leaving by the side door...who speaks no English...is offered as the same event outside the gates and off the property.

These guys were thought to be Anarchists by the authorities...if the police thought a murder in their yard was by a club attendee....the club, The Arbeter Fraint, and the members are out on the streets.

The assault happens off the property?,...then their story of an empty yard is the reason the murder happened there.

Cheers Mrs D

[Tom_Wescott]

It would be great if we could prove that Schwartz did enjoy a connection to the club. I don't believe he was a card-carrying member, and William Wess told one reporter as much. However, if we can show that Schwartz was a member of one of the club's unions, we'd have our connection, and that would certainly strengthen the argument that Schwartz was a club member.

At the moment it is a theory that Schwartz was a club member, and nothing more. That's important to remember. But if he WERE associated with the club, then we'd have to ask ourselves what his agenda was in going to the police.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott