Why Did the BS Man Try to Pull Liz into the Street?

[Mrs Darrell]

I've just ploughed my way through Philip Sugden's book, and he makes some interesting points about the Stride murder. I'm sure all you have read it long before me, but he seems to conclude that it is likely that Liz was a Ripper victim- so I'm now right back where I started- undecided.

In my opinion it is the evidence of Israel Schwartz that complicates everything. It's hard to square the actions of BS man with the stealthy actions of the killer of the other victims.

Funny how the one guy who was busy moving that night and thus wasn't barricaded in the club by the police, also happened to be the guy for whom the ENTIRE STREET EMPTIED OUT except for him, Liz, and two suspicious gentiles.

I'm thinking about writing something up on this for Ripperologist soon, since there appears to be a bit of interest in Schwartz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

It is a situation where almost all the evidence provided is advantageous to the club members...funny that. When looking at a crime I always look to anyone that might gain from the actions taken....in this case I cannot see a downside for the club the way the statements read...and I cannot see a good reason why these young men known to police as Anarchists would have an empty yard and street on that night when they historically, did not after meetings on Saturdays.

Too convenient for my liking anyway...and I think its a good time for you to re-visit the event using your research into the club and its members Tom.

Best regards.

[Tom_Wescott]

I believe it was you that was responsible for me getting that impression Tom, almost solely based on the ages of the men from the club present in the story.

Yes, Michael. I first started suspecting Schwartz was associated with the Berner Street club some time back, although I have more reason to think so than just their ages.

The members of the Berner Street club were mostly 18-25, with the Elders (such as Krantz and Wess) being 27-29. Schwartz was apparently also a young man, and if the Start reporter is to be believed, he was not an Hassidic Jew and in fact dressed like a showman.

Schwartz (according to the Star) lived in Berner Street until the day of the murder, when he had moved to a neighboring street. Interesting timing. And where in Berner Street did young, Jewish immigrants in need of a home stay?

At the Berner Street club.

Funny how the one guy who was busy moving that night and thus wasn't barricaded in the club by the police, also happened to be the guy for whom the ENTIRE STREET EMPTIED OUT except for him, Liz, and two suspicious gentiles.
Add to this the newspaper reports that the police did not wholly accept Schwartz's evidence, and ask yourself what might have given them reason to doubt him? His association with the clubmen, who at that time were held in suspicion?

The theory above is theoretical at this point, but if it is born out that Schwartz was associated with Wess and/or the club, we'd have to ask ourselves how much stock we could put in his evidence.

I'm thinking about writing something up on this for Ripperologist soon, since there appears to be a bit of interest in Schwartz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Robert]

Even the English version is puzzling! It looks for all the world as if Schwarz was level with the gate when all this happened. I doubt if he was.

[Robert]

It only requires there to have been a linguistic misinterpretation - or for Schwarz to have looked away for a brief second - and it could be a different story. Who was pulling whom? Was Stride on the pull that night? Did she try to pull BS into the yard? If he pulled back, it's logical that Stride would be the one who ended up moving.

I believe it was you that was responsible for me getting that impression Tom, almost solely based on the ages of the men from the club present in the story. I thank you for that information. I dont mean that he was necessarily a card carrying member,...surely some meeting attendees werent full fledged members, those meetings were to attract new ones also. His "moving" story sucks, and if his translator helps him out by giving him a story in English that makes him seem a good husband and places the initial altercation off premises,..so much the better for him at home later. She might even have been worried for him...instead of wondering where he was at 12:45am.

Sam, I know that this is the weekend the phrase "Ripper" is born, but my point is valid I believe...."another" woman is a prejudicial statement without supporting evidence...it had been 3 weeks since the last murder...this wasnt a "current" mania..it had subsided somewhat. Streets were back to somewhat their normal state.

If evidence exists by a non-English speaking witness that suggests a club attendee killed the woman in the yard, (and that he had been hanging about a Socialists meeting instead of seeing to his wife at the new digs)....you have the makings of a potential disaster for the Club...and some issues for the witness to handle. The woman is dead already...he cant change that...but his statement in English could relieve the Club of almost any suspected involvement...after all the killer enters the picture passing the locked Berner Street door towards the gates...so he couldnt have come from the club, could he?

Does his translator or he himself make those subtle detail changes when giving his story in my premise here....dont know.....but I do know that if BSM and Liz's encounter did happen in the yard, Schwartz's story is literally the salvation of the club and the paper.

But if it did happen that way....Diemshutz, Kozebrodski, Eagle and Mrs Diemshutz all have some "splainin" to do.

Best regards Sam, Tom, all.

[Sam Flynn]

But Im sure that youd agree Sam that the situation they had come upon was not obviously one of the same killer of the last 2 women in the neighborhood...a Ripper as killer wasnt warranted by Liz's single wound or demeanor in death

I doubt that they'd have stopped to think, Mike and, besides, the "Ripper" was yet to emerge. Until this point, it was "Leather Apron" and the "Whitechapel Murderer" who, in varying degrees - and for more than a mere two murders - had gripped the public imagination. So, "another murder" was a quite natural thing to have thought and said. No great mystery there.

[Tom_Wescott]

It would be great if we could prove that Schwartz did enjoy a connection to the club. I don't believe he was a card-carrying member, and William Wess told one reporter as much. However, if we can show that Schwartz was a member of one of the club's unions, we'd have our connection, and that would certainly strengthen the argument that Schwartz was a club member.

At the moment it is a theory that Schwartz was a club member, and nothing more. That's important to remember. But if he WERE associated with the club, then we'd have to ask ourselves what his agenda was in going to the police.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

So you think Schwartz may have concocted the story to divert attention from the club? Interesting theory.

Hi Mrs Darrell,

I do,... personally. I believe his lack of English may have played a role there as well, as its possible the translator represented Club interests, and might be able to "alter" things slightly while giving Schwartz's account.

His story about why he is there is not reasonable, and it places him, a Hungarian Socialist Jew of around 30 ish, outside a Working Mens Club for Socialist Jews after a Saturday meeting they regularly held had ended, and some 28 attendees were still on the premises and singing. The yard is stated as empty by 4 people representing the Club...first Wess, then Mrs Diemshutz, then Lave, then Eagle on his return....and we have neighbors that stated they often heard noises from the yard after 1am after Saturday meetings, with "low" men and women, to contradict that stated scenario.

We have Fanny Mortimer who never saw Broadshouldered Man, or Liz, or Schwartz near the gates anytime she is at her door off and on until 1am. And we have Goldstein walking past the gates at round 1:55, and not going in the yard that singing is heard coming from, even though he has a bag full of empty cigarette cartons on his person and a few cigarette makers in the cottages stated they were awake at around the time of the murders, and he was a club member.......my personal guess is he saw people around a figure on the ground and kept walking. I think that people caused Diemshutz's horse to shy away.

Its circumstantially based of course, but I contend that if the event that Schwartz saw was almost on the exact spot where Liz was found, and he sidestepped his way around the altercation to leave by the gates with another man who may have been smoking his pipe in the yard after the meeting, you have the beginning of the murder and an attendee that night likely to blame for her death.

There has to be good reason why she is not mutilated postmortem or even an attempt made in supposedly an empty yard....thats one possibility...Jack didnt kill her, a club thug did. And the altercation that led up to it that was seen by a member leaving by the side door...who speaks no English...is offered as the same event outside the gates and off the property.

These guys were thought to be Anarchists by the authorities...if the police thought a murder in their yard was by a club attendee....the club, The Arbeter Fraint, and the members are out on the streets.

The assault happens off the property?,...then their story of an empty yard is the reason the murder happened there.

Cheers Mrs D

[Mrs Darrell]

So you think Schwartz may have concocted the story to divert attention from the club? Interesting theory.

Not so much the first murder that night, as the Nth in a series of Whitechapel Murders. Noting that "another woman" had been killed wasn't a particularly mysterious phrase to use in that part of town at that time, nor in the press.

Therefore, no cover-up.

But Im sure that youd agree Sam that the situation they had come upon was not obviously one of the same killer of the last 2 women in the neighborhood...a Ripper as killer wasnt warranted by Liz's single wound or demeanor in death ...lying on her side....yet the accusation implied there was evidence that warranted the cry.

If Schwartz was a club member.. which is what I suspect he was, his being there at that time for his other excuse is weak....then I cant be sure the altercation even took place outside the gates....I wouldnt know how to sort out what he lied about and what was the real witness evidence. I cant be sure the yard was actually empty either, if club members just "move" the altercation 15 feet outside the gate using Schwartzs opportunity to do so.

If she is killed after being seen in the yard with a ruffian with Broadshoulders, she was almost certainly killed by a man that attended the club that night...likely the one roughing her up a bit. If she is placed outside the gates and the same altercation takes place....then her killer must have slipped into the dark with her to slit her throat...and tada...there is Jacky boy for ya.

Altercation seen inside the yard...likely Club attendee, meetings end, club closes. Altercation on the street outside the gates...could be anybody who brings her into the yard...and likely not from the club itself. In fact....the Berner door was locked.....you know why I think that was said Sam? So Broadshouldered Man could not have come from the club.

That would mean that Eagle might have used the yard entrance on purpose...maybe to tell a lass waiting there he'd be right out.

Best regards Gareth

[Mascara & Paranoia]

I completely forgot about that. Good point, um...

[Lord-z]

Could the broad-shouldered bloke be a member of the club and wanted to forcibly get Stride from loitering on the property for clients (presumably)? I always thought one of the people from the club cutting Stride's throat to be more likely than the Ripper, and could even explain the GSG, if you wanted to believe that Jack chalked it.

He yelled Lipski, an anti-semetic slur, when he saw Schwartz, didn't he?

[Sam Flynn]

....and they yell "another woman" has been killed when its the first murder that night. Cover-up.

Not so much the first murder that night, as the Nth in a series of Whitechapel Murders. Noting that "another woman" had been killed wasn't a particularly mysterious phrase to use in that part of town at that time, nor in the press.

Therefore, no cover-up.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Could the broad-shouldered bloke be a member of the club and wanted to forcibly get Stride from loitering on the property for clients (presumably)? I always thought one of the people from the club cutting Stride's throat to be more likely than the Ripper, and could even explain the GSG, if you wanted to believe that Jack chalked it.

Reminds me of the time I got a viagra stuck in my throat....had a stiff neck for a week.

I lol'd. xD