Why Did the BS Man Try to Pull Liz into the Street?

[Mitch Rowe]

But Nichols was the first. Eddowes was a stand in. Most likely JTR walked into the yard with Stride without incident.

[Howard Brown]

Pardon the intrusion here...

The observations we make of Schwartz' statement regarding BSMan pulling,dragging,or moving Stride into or toward the street might need to seen in this light as well. Its irrelevant in the scheme of things but let me spiel...

If on one side...the other side of Stride's body in relation to the layout, there was a gate or wall, would we maintain that BSMan tried to "put her through a wall or gate" or throw her into the gate? I don't think so. Its almost an either/or situation since she most likely would have fallen in one of two directions at best.

I mention this solely in contrast to a previous "belief" I once held,that someone from the IWMEC came outside and tried to give the woman the heave ho from the front of the premises since she had attracted a little attention from the fellers....

Haskins, the poster, mentioned

"If we put all our faith in Schwartz, then the BS man was most likely the killer, but his behaviour was unsubtle and unwise, given that he was intending to slaughter her. Doesn't sound like someone who would get away with a string of murders. So maybe he was not JtR.

It might be worth contemplating that we don't know whether Nichols' killer or Eddowes' killer displayed any subtlety at all in those cases either. Just a thought.

[Mitch Rowe]

Almost anything could have happened. I watched a case the other day where a witness answered a knock on the door in wich Police were pretty it was the killer who had hoped it was the victim answering. a few minutes later there was another knock at the door. This time victim answered. Vicitm was shot and killed.

Now police had found out that the victim had stolen the killers drugs that were hidden in an alley because the kiler was a drug dealer who would hide his drugs there till a deal was made.

All is looking good for the case. All they need is the witness to identify the killer and the case is sealed. They show the witness a photo line up with the killers picture.

The witness picks a random person from the line up and swears on his life that the person is the one who knocked on the door!! There was nothing they could do. The witness was absolutely sure of himself yet absolutely wrong.

In another case a female witness who lived in an apt in wich a murder had occured outside nearly in the front yard told police she had dropped her keys on the ground outside when the shooting started and she wanted to retrieve them. I dont recall if they gave them to her. I dont think so. Where they were laying made them part of the crimescene.

Anyway they found out later the "witness" was actually the killers girlfriend and the keys belonged to the killer who had dropped them while running away.

Soo.. If you are a detective and stuff like that happens to you how reliable can you consider a witness to be?

[Mrs Darrell]

If Schwartz is telling the truth (or Brown for that matter) and it was Elizabeth Stride they saw with the killer at 12.45, then surelythat is plenty of time for the killer to do whatever damage to the woman as he wanted before the arrival of the pony and cart at 1am?

Unless the man seen with her was not her killer and she had the misfortune to meet JtR after that?

[Haskins]

Yes i think Schwartz is a big problem for us. How reliable is he? Was he mistaken in any respect (about the time, the day, the persons he saw?). His witness testimony is uncorroborated by anyone else. Personally i've always thought that his testimony has to be treated with caution.

If we put all our faith in Schwartz, then the BS man was most likely the killer, but his behaviour was unsubtle and unwise, given that he was intending to slaughter her. Doesn't sound like someone who would get away with a string of murders. So maybe he was not JtR.

That's the thing with this case, there are lots of baffling questions that can not now be answered and lots of problems that we will probably never solve.

One problem with Schwartz is that he couldn't speak English. The translator might have made some mistakes.So it's difficult to choose between his police statement and The Star.
On old boards, for example (and if I remember well), there was a suggestion about Hungarian language, which could explain why the original pipe became a knife in the press report.

Hi David,

It wasnt a problem for Schwartz at all....its a problem for us in that we have to wonder whether he is translated exactly as he conveyed the details to the interpreter in Hungarian, and whether the interpreter accurately, intentionally or non-intentionally, mis-represented any content.

I think you can rightfully assume something regarding the translated testimony in the Berner Street murder investigation....none of it reflected suspiciously or poorly on the International Club or the Arbeter Fraint. Its likely both Goldstein and Schwartz were translated for by Wess...I believe Tom Wescott mentioned that in fact Goldstein was.

Best regards.

[DVV]

One problem with Schwartz is that he couldn't speak English. The translator might have made some mistakes.
So it's difficult to choose between his police statement and The Star.
On old boards, for example (and if I remember well), there was a suggestion about Hungarian language, which could explain why the original pipe became a knife in the press report.

Hello all,

According to Israel, he came upon the scene from behind BSMan, and before BS had reached Liz, so he could see her there and the altercation from the start...but not to the finish, I would guess.

I think him pulling her away from the gates could be seen as a potential customer assuming he is seeing a whore working and plans to take her to where they can consumate business...which likely means he is not a member of that club, who would freely choose the empty yard if so disposed. She demurs, pulls back, and falls. Why would a whore seeking clients pull back from him to stay in the location she is found in? Dont whores pick up tricks and go away somewhere with them...isnt that the norm? So... did she not like his breath, or clothes....was she actually financially better off than just the 6d she earned cleaning that afternoon?

Or was she as cd suggested, waiting for someone at that location. Someone who Ill bet just arrived back at the club around 12:40am, and had popped indoors and upstairs for a moment....perhaps to pick up money for his speech that night, and then meet a girl just outside the gates at 1. Maybe.

Best regards all.

[c.d.]

...well, whoever he was, BS man clearly had no qualms about venting his spleen

Maybe he just wanted to have a heart to heart talk with her.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Stop. Stop. No Kidney discussions allowed

...well, whoever he was, BS man clearly had no qualms about venting his spleen

[Sam Flynn]

Kidney would have done a runner, or broke down under Police pressure, which there must have been ?

I'm not sure that every person so disposed has necessarily crumbled under interrogation, Jon.

[c.d.]

Hi Jon,

I would also expect that the police would have had Schwartz take a look at Kidney as he had to be prime suspect number one. (Stop. Stop. No Kidney discussions allowed).

c.d.

[Jon Guy]

Thanks for that. Of course the possibility also exists that the BS man knew her from earlier in the evening. For example, he is turned down by Liz, goes into a pub for a beer, comes out to see Liz in the same spot and decides to show her that he is not a man used to being turned down by whores.

So "knew her" does not necessarily imply a long standing relationship.

c.d.

I agree. BS man looks like one of the punters she is seen with earlier. It does appear that she had some kind of agenda for the evening.

I cannot believe it could be Kidney, especially if they`d had words and recently split, that would be too obvious, and Kidney would have done a runner, or broke down under Police pressure, which there must have been ?

[c.d.]

Ah, but that which can be pulled out can usually be put back in, AP - unless your name happens to be John Wayne Bobbitt.

It turned out that Bobbitt's wife actually did want sex that night. Only she wanted it to go.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for that. Of course the possibility also exists that the BS man knew her from earlier in the evening. For example, he is turned down by Liz, goes into a pub for a beer, comes out to see Liz in the same spot and decides to show her that he is not a man used to being turned down by whores.

So "knew her" does not necessarily imply a long standing relationship.

c.d.