The green velvet patch

[Monty]

If Stride and Eddowes were killed by the same hand, then the following information copied from the Casebook witnesses section becomes interesting.

Aged 30, 5'7", fair complexion, brown moustache, salt-and-pepper coat, red neckerchief, grey peaked cloth cap. Sailor-like.

This is the description Lawende gave of the man he saw with Eddowes.

Schwartz's description of the man he saw with Stride is very similar, although it does not mention a sailor-like appearance.

We also have Lawende appearing at an identification parade regarding Sadler, who was a sailor.

Hmmmm, I wonder why?

Monty

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Schwartz's description of the man he saw with Stride is very similar, although it does not mention a sailor-like appearance.

No, Diana, the descriptions are not similar at all, not in any important elements. The only elements that are similar is the peak cap and the moustasch - two of the most common attributes on working class men at the time.

But the descritptions don't seem to match either in other clothing articles or regarding the person's general apparence.

All the best

[diana]

Pea coats are associated with sailors. See the link.

http://lonesailorshipstore.stores.yahoo.net/peacoatpeaco.html

[Sam Flynn]

Pea coats are associated with sailors.

Lawende only mentions a "coat", and Schwartz a "jacket", though. Peas don't enter into it - in fact, the subject of pulses isn't even brought up by the doctors

[The Grave Maurice]

Peas don't enter into it - in fact, the subject of pulses isn't even brought up by the doctors....

That's very good. It's about time a leguminous plant joke cropped up here.

[Sam Flynn]

That's very good. It's about time a leguminous plant joke cropped up here.

I agree - it's bean far too long.

[Autolycus]

The Same Man

Hello all. Glenn, it’s nice to bump into you on these boards, which I have been following for a while.

With respect, I think that Diana’s claim that Lawende and Schwarz' descriptions are “very similar” is perfectly tenable.

The following elements are common
• Aged 30, fair complexion, brown moustache

The following are very similar
• Height (5’5” / 5’7”), Peaked cap (grey / black)

Others do not exclude the possibility that it is the same individual
• Brown haired (probably both, as they both had brown moustaches), Coat / Jacket (Could be describing the same item if it was a dark salt & pepper mix), Broad shouldered / Sailor-like (They differ, but both could describe a tough physical specimen.)

To my mind, given the variations that frequently occur in witness statements, those of Lawende and Schwarz suggest they’ve seen the same man.

What of the anomaly of the red neckerchief? To be honest, I don’t know! For the sake of speculation, let’s say he knotted it round his neck to cover blood spatter that he had seen on his collar.

With regard to legumes… that’s alfalfa now.

[Fisherman]

Hi Autolycus!

This point is where I generally pop up to remind about the fact that the Star had Schwartz´guy down as someone with a respectable appearance, and that did not seem to fit Lawendes man in the least.

I think there is every chance that the man Marshall saw with Stride, described as clerk-like, wearing a black jacket and being on the stout side, is the very same man that Schwartz saw later. And that is a man who differs very much from Lawendes man, not only neckerchiefwise.

The best,
Fisherman

[Autolycus]

Pondering

Thanks Fisherman. I’m afraid I’m still at the stage when any constructive criticism sends me back into the books to check my ground! Still, I’ll ponder what you say…

[Ben]

Hi Auto,

I tend to agree with your "same man" hypothesis. I take Fisherman's point, but the "respectable" detail was conspicuously absent from Swanson's report on Schwartz's description.

Best regards,
Ben

[Fisherman]

Hi Ben!

Aren´t you the guy who usually criticize me for repeating myself...?

The best, Ben!
Fisherman

All the best, Ben!

[Autolycus]

Back Again

Back again after some swift re-reading!

Fisherman – Fair point, there are similarities between Marshall and Schwarz’ descriptions.

Personally, I do not think they are any closer match than Schwarz and Lawende’s. Also, I also treat anything that’s gone through the prism of a newspaper report with some suspicion. Furthermore, is it just me, or is there an element of the Coroner “leading” Marshall while he gives his testimony?

On balance, I remain more interested in the possibility that Schwarz and Lawende saw the same man: because the timings would work so well for The Double Event.

Ben – Yes, your observation on “respectable” is the sort of thing I was thinking of when I referred to “leading” above. (BTW thanks for your kind welcome after my virgin post an another thread.)

[Fisherman]

Hi Autolycus!

To my mind, the double event complimented so very well by the timing, never existed. Stride was not killed by the Ripper. Therefore I see no need to try and squeeze things in to fit the bill.

The part about leading Marshalls testimony; yes, that is an interpretation that can be made. But I don´t think it turned the man from a ruffian to a clerk...

The best!
Fisherman

[Autolycus]

A stage I'm going through

Hi Fisherman

At this point I’m trying very hard to keep an open mind on all things Ripper. (I’m sure that’s just a stage I’m going through!) I assure you that I wasn’t trying to make the theory fit the facts. One day I’m sure I’ll feel up to the challenge of discussing Stride’s exclusion from the canon on another thread.

Regards

[diana]

Pea Coat

With reference to the pea coat: This is one of those "I read it somewhere." issues. I stumbled into Ripperology in 1988 after seeing the two specials on TV and haven't looked back since. Have read a lot for 20 years and have all sorts of little factoids tucked away here and there, and unfortunately no recollection of where I picked them up.

Naturally other people want documentation.

I know I read somewhere that one or both of the men seen on the night of the double event wore a pea coat.

I think Richard Nunweek and I need to start a club! I have a lot of sympathy for him and his radio broadcast. I don't believe he made it up out of whole cloth any more than I made this up.

Finding the documentation is another story.

A few minutes later: I tried the Casebook search function but all I got was a title that said "Search the Casebook". Maybe Google.